Russia v Ukraine

[TheHowieLama]

3 hours ago, SasaS said:

Don't quite follow.

Ukraine has been taking it in the ass for a long time - the rest of the world pay attention when there is a "war."

 

When the "mission is accomplished" the rest of the world will look at something else and the Russians will continue to destroy whatever and whoever they can in Ukraine. I assumed that is what you meant by different kind of war.

[Rico1304]

4 hours ago, Strontium said:

I expected better judgement from the man who said Hamas were a force for political and social justice if I'm honest.

‘True colours shining through, but don’t be afraid to let them know, your true colours are…well, fucking horrific’. 

[Bjornebye]

I can think of many an organisation that would claim to be a force for political and social justice but in reality aren't at all............ But let's not talk about them...... Let's hammer a lifelong pacifist who wants an end to violence and for disputes to be settled over a table and not with rockets landing on kids eh. 

 

For clairty, here is what Corbyn said.

 

Corbyn responded to interviewer Krishnan Guru-Murthy asking about his description of Lebanese Islamists Hesbollah and Palestinian Islamists Hamas as “our friends” by saying that he doesn't agree with these organisations, but that peace in the Middle East requires negotiations with all sorts of people.

The first thing to say is that, however one assesses the performance and motives of Guru-Murthy and Channel 4, there is clearly a right-wing push against Corbyn on these issues. If the Corbyn leadership campaign continues to perform as strongly as it has so far, the right-wing outcry is likely to get louder.

The motivations of these attacks are made clear by the fact that those making them are not bothered by the friendly relationship of the entire New Labour hierarchy with the Saudi dictatorship, or the links between all kinds of bourgeois British politicians – particularly Tories – and unpleasant regimes around the planet. They are targeting Corbyn because he looks soft on the ‘wrong’ people, and above all because they are bothered by the success of a left-wing campaign that is bolstering labour movement confidence.

The left must expose such cynicism and hypocrisy, both for general reasons and to defend the Corbyn campaign. At the same time, we should say that – judged by our own standards, not those of the right – Corbyn’s stance on the controversial issues is wrong.

In the March 2009 speech to a Stop the War Coalition meeting in which Corbyn talked about “friends” (on YouTube here) he said:

“Tomorrow evening it will my pleasure and my honour to host an event in Parliament where our friends from Hesbollah will be speaking. I’ve also invited friends from Hamas to come and speak as well...

“The idea that an organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people, and bringing about long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region, should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is really a big, big historical mistake...”

“Our function is to support those people who are supporting and defending and representing the Palestinian people... part of [that] is inviting and welcoming our friends from Lebanon and from Palestine to London...”

The issue is not this or that phrase, nor the legitimate idea that getting peace often requires negotiations with people you don’t like – nor, of course, Corbyn’s absolutely correct opposition to repressive “anti-terrorism” legislation. It is the lack of sharp hostility to – and indeed praise of – brutally reactionary political forces. The problem with the likes of Hamas and Hesbollah is not that they are “terrorists” but that they are violently anti-women, anti-semitic, anti-gay, anti-working class theocratic bigots. In 2009 Hamas was engaged in a brutal clampdown on women and workers’ organisations among others in the Gaza strip: see here.

That a socialist could describe Hamas as “dedicated... to social and political justice” and describe working with them as a "pleasure and honour" is ridiculous. So is the comparison Corbyn made with the ANC. From a socialist point of view there were many problems with the ANC even before it took power, but to compare it to Hamas or Hesbollah is a slander.

We suspect that in this speech Corbyn got carried away, and that his underlying thought is that Hamas and Hesbollah are bad, but peace is the priority, Western imperialism and Israel are the chief evils, and so it is necessary to be diplomatic.

The problem with such diplomacy is that it means representing militaristic forces as peace-loving, and promoting bigoted reactionaries busy smashing our comrades – working-class activists, the left, feminists, etc in the Middle East – as progressives. People with Corbyn's politics in Gaza face physical attack, prison or exile!

We want peace in the region, yes, and an end to the oppression of the Palestinians, but we also want to help the left there battle against Islamism. In addition, being able to vigorously denounce such forces would put the left in a stronger position to point out the hypocrisy of the right.

These kind of failings are not just a problem with Corbyn, but with wide sections of the left, from liberals through to self-styled revolutionaries. Those leading the Stop the War campaign have played a central role in spreading such ideas.

Against that approach we need to restate the basic Marxist idea of international working-class solidarity: “We shall never forget that the workers of all countries are our friends and the despots of all countries are our enemies” (German workers' resolution during the Franco-Prussian War). The working-class movements, socialists, feminists and democrats of the Middle East are our friends, not Hamas and Hesbollah.

None of the candidates in the Labour leadership election are good on foreign policy; Corbyn at least opposes British militarism, nuclear weapons, etc, and despite his comments he is the most likely to support solidarity with working-class activists around the world. This in addition to his policies and record on austerity, workers' struggles, migrants' rights, and so on: a vote for Corbyn is a vote to break from the New Labour consensus on these issues, and rally the left and labour movement for a fightback.

[SasaS]

44 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Ukraine has been taking it in the ass for a long time - the rest of the world pay attention when there is a "war."

 

When the "mission is accomplished" the rest of the world will look at something else and the Russians will continue to destroy whatever and whoever they can in Ukraine. I assumed that is what you meant by different kind of war.

No, I meant more of a Afghanistan / Vietnam / Iraq insurgency type of war instead of a head-on WWI or WWII type of war with defined frontlines.

 

And I actually think the situation has been steadily improving for Ukraine over the past  30-odd years since the independence, in terms of building a nation, identity  and emancipation from Russia, certainly compared to previous decades or centuries. That's why Russia has invaded, because it was steadily slipping away for good. I don't think Russia ever fully saw Ukraine and Belarus as independent countries, their independence is only recognized by Moscow if they remain somewhere in the spectrum from puppet state to the allied country firmly within their sphere of interest.

 

So this is now a war of independence for Ukraine that has been constantly delayed and they are lucky that they have the US and most of the West on their side, for now, with varying levels of commitment.

[ManéMan]

6 hours ago, Strontium said:

I expected better judgement from the man who said Hamas were a force for political and social justice if I'm honest.

He's wrong, we should be arming hamas in the same way as Ukraine including its nazi elements. 

[Bjornebye]

 

 

[Anubis]

Feels like everyone has moved on to China v Taiwan.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 hours ago, ManéMan said:

He's wrong, we should be arming hamas in the same way as Ukraine including its nazi elements. 

That’s one way to get Palestine removed from the planet, yes. It’s not a very apt parallel anyway, we’d already be arming Russia in that scenario.

[Bjornebye]

4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

That’s one way to get Palestine removed from the planet, yes. It’s not a very apt parallel anyway, we’d already be arming Russia in that scenario.

How do you mean? 

[TheHowieLama]

41 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

How do you mean? 

Israel. Allies.

[Red Phoenix]

5 hours ago, Anubis said:

Feels like everyone has moved on to China v Taiwan.

 

[Gnasher]

 

 

 

Shoot the messenger time.

 

 

[polymerpunkah]

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, displaced millions of innocent men women and children, destroyed dozens of cities, and killed thousands of civilians.

 

Matthew 7:3–5: 'Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 

 

 

 

 

[SasaS]

That is actually hilarious from Amnesty International. In other wars, as we know, armies politely stay in designated military buildings and wait for the enemy with vastly superior firepower to kill them.

[TheHowieLama]

I would imagine the dozens of confirmed strikes over the last few months on civilian infrastructure don't count anyway.

[Rico1304]

45 minutes ago, SasaS said:

That is actually hilarious from Amnesty International. In other wars, as we know, armies politely stay in designated military buildings and wait for the enemy with vastly superior firepower to kill them.

 

[Bjornebye]

1 hour ago, polymerpunkah said:

Russia has invaded a sovereign country, displaced millions of innocent men women and children, destroyed dozens of cities, and killed thousands of civilians.

 

Matthew 7:3–5: 'Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 

 

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that land grabs and the slaughter and displacement of innocents is truly awful. it's just a same that many people are selective in their condemnation. The fucking state of society eh. 

[SasaS]

Of all the things happening in a war like this one, it seems bizarre that an organization would focus on this. Literally every urban settlement which is engulfed by frontlines has subsequently been used as a natural fortification, in this and almost every other modern war.

 

 

[polymerpunkah]

5 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

I think we can all agree that land grabs and the slaughter and displacement of innocents is truly awful. it's just a same that many people are selective in their condemnation. The fucking state of society eh. 

I pick and choose, like most every one else.

 

Which means I'm a hypocrite, I suppose.

 

But this one, given the participants and their history, their location and their systems of government, deserves special attention.

 

One of those potential "turning points in history".

[Strontium]

Special attention should always be given when an indigenous people, tied to the land for thousands of years, are faced with an imperialistic and fascistic neighbour that wants to overturn their democracy and supplant their native culture, presence and language.

[Gnasher]

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

 

 

 

[Skidfingers McGonical]

Ha! Fuck off. An interview with Vanity Fair while there is “War” going on. Amazing stuff. 
 

Gotta build the brand though I suppose. 

[ZonkoVille77]

3 hours ago, Strontium said:

Special attention should always be given when an indigenous people, tied to the land for thousands of years, are faced with an imperialistic and fascistic neighbour that wants to overturn their democracy and supplant their native culture, presence and language.

 

That's why people still want the Brits out of Ireland. 

[ZonkoVille77]

3 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

 

 

 

Unbelievable. Look at this picture. 

She looks very fucking concerned for her country alright.