Russia v Ukraine

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Invading another country is always going to be mainly Russia's fault, I'm not saying that isn't the case. To say Ukrainian forces didn't spend years playing the equivalent of "let's keep poking this huge fucking bear with a stick and see what happens" though only works if you erase a lot of history, which funnily enough this thread has been great at. That's why I've mainly avoided it for a while now.

 

 

"Who they were backed by." Same for the other side too.

It's not mainly Russia's fault, it's entirely Russia's fault. Your characterisation as what has been happening since their last incursion as 'poking this huge bear with a stick' should immediately bar you from preaching about erasing of history. And no, not 'same for the other side'. Their a sovereign nation who has been invaded more than once. Illegally and brutally but a corrupt, oppressive regime. 

 

Your take on this is actually quite distasteful and ignorant, in my view.

[Red Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

It's not mainly Russia's fault, it's entirely Russia's fault. Your characterisation as what has been happening since their last incursion as 'poking this huge bear with a stick' should immediately bar you from preaching about erasing of history. And no, not 'same for the other side'. Their a sovereign nation who has been invaded more than once. Illegally and brutally but a corrupt, oppressive regime. 

 

Your take on this is actually quite distasteful and ignorant, in my view.

 

It doesn't even register with me because it's so one sided.

 

I'll try and stick to grain which might cause less arguments though. Looking forward to seeing if Ukraine actually start de-mining the area so that it can have a chance to move by sea.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

It doesn't even register with me because it's so one sided.

 

I'll try and stick to grain which might cause less arguments though. Looking forward to seeing if Ukraine actually start de-mining the area so that it can have a chance to move by sea.

Looking forward to Russia stopping besieging Ukraine so they can stop acting like a besieged nation. 

[Anubis]

Ok, let’s cut through the bollocks.

 

1. There is a load of grain sitting in a Ukrainian port which needs to fly wild and free otherwise food problems are incoming.

 

2. Russia is in situ and ain’t moving, so no amount of “well maybe Russia should…” is relevant, because it’s not happening.

 

3. That makes it incumbent on the rest of us, whether we like it or not, to do something.

 

Thats it. Period. That’s the reality. And all the sniping in the world isn’t going to change that.

 

So, over to our masters… (not Usher, by the way).

[Red Phoenix]

10 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Looking forward to Russia stopping besieging Ukraine so they can stop acting like a besieged nation. 

 

Same, maybe at that point we'll actually have some talks and see if there's any chance of peace.

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

No it isn't. None of this ever was.

That may be true and their has been a longstanding friction in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine and although I agree with some of your points on the way the west has responded to this war it doesn't alter the fact you can't simply invade another country, because A, you are committing a war crime, B, you are subjecting thousands of innocent civilians to death.

[Gnasher]

33 minutes ago, Anubis said:

Ok, let’s cut through the bollocks.

 

1. There is a load of grain sitting in a Ukrainian port which needs to fly wild and free otherwise food problems are incoming.

 

2. Russia is in situ and ain’t moving, so no amount of “well maybe Russia should…” is relevant, because it’s not happening.

 

3. That makes it incumbent on the rest of us, whether we like it or not, to do something.

 

Thats it. Period. That’s the reality. And all the sniping in the world isn’t going to change that.

 

So, over to our masters… (not Usher, by the way).

 

Is it possible Russia may release the grain if the west withdraws certain economic sanctions?

[Numero Veinticinco]

35 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Same, maybe at that point we'll actually have some talks and see if there's any chance of peace.

Well yes, Russia stopping their war crimes long enough to talk does seem like a pre-requisite to peace talks. 

39 minutes ago, Anubis said:

Ok, let’s cut through the bollocks.

 

1. There is a load of grain sitting in a Ukrainian port which needs to fly wild and free otherwise food problems are incoming.

 

2. Russia is in situ and ain’t moving, so no amount of “well maybe Russia should…” is relevant, because it’s not happening.

 

3. That makes it incumbent on the rest of us, whether we like it or not, to do something.

 

Thats it. Period. That’s the reality. And all the sniping in the world isn’t going to change that.

 

So, over to our masters… (not Usher, by the way).

If we're cutting through the bollocks, what is that 'something' you talk about in point three? The port cities are under siege by Russia, the black sea is blockaded by Russian warships and submarines so trade can't flow through there. What is this something, that obviously doesn't involve Russia?

[SasaS]

Maybe African countries should stop supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine which is causing the fertilizer prices go up and grain not being shipped? The same Russia which has no problem getting Mariupol port to work when they need to steal the steel from Azovstal (see what I did there). Maybe ask Moscow to send them some of the grain they have already looted from Kherson region, in exchange for the mention support?

[Gnasher]

38 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Maybe African countries should stop supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine which is causing the fertilizer prices go up and grain not being shipped? The same Russia which has no problem getting Mariupol port to work when they need to steal the steel from Azovstal (see what I did there). Maybe ask Moscow to send them some of the grain they have already looted from Kherson region, in exchange for the mention support?

Ah it's the Africans fault. Should've known. Let em starve.

[Red Phoenix]

48 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

That may be true and their has been a longstanding friction in the southern and eastern parts of Ukraine and although I agree with some of your points on the way the west has responded to this war it doesn't alter the fact you can't simply invade another country, because A, you are committing a war crime, B, you are subjecting thousands of innocent civilians to death.

 

Yeah I'd not have even posted that but when you get shit for talking about grain and not even saying a negative word about Ukrainian forces it can be frustrating. I've completely opposed the invasion from the off and have also said more than once I think that Putin is a war criminal, I still believe that.

 

34 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

Is it possible Russia may release the grain if the west withdraws certain economic sanctions?

 

Yes, we've not tried though and I get the feeling that some of our leaders would rather see people die of starvation than drop them. They're fucking obsessed with sanctions. The US didn't even remove some of their sanctions on other countries during the height of covid I don't think so it's hard to see how they give a shit really. We now have even the president of Senegal saying sanctions are causing issues though (from here) so hopefully they'll get more opposition from here on out.

 

Maybe a good first step would be Ukraine and Russia holding talks to agree that Odesa port doesn't come under any type of attack for the sake of getting this food out and then Ukraine might feel better about de-mining. People can say "well Russia can't be trusted" but if we stick with that mindset in this situation that grain isn't going anywhere by sea and we've got a food crisis on our hands shortly.

[SasaS]

36 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Ah it's the Africans fault. Should've known. Let em starve.

If they need grain from Ukraine (I am on a roll), they know perfectly well where to ask.

[Gnasher]

Fuel prices hit record high. Firms warning they could go out of business, workers such as carers saying they may leave the profession as fuel costs make the overheads too high. 

 

Meanwhile;

 

 

[SasaS]

People should really decide, are sanctions hurting Russia or not, it cannot be both ways. "Sanctions are bad and should be lifted, but they are not working anyway."

BTW, that is a current account surplus, which is most likely boosted by collapsing imports, and that may adversely affect the economy beyond Q1.  

[Red Phoenix]

Quote

Putin said on Monday that Russia was ready to facilitate the shipment of grain out of blockaded Ukrainian ports in coordination with Turkey, the Kremlin said in a statement.

“Vladimir Putin noted the readiness of the Russian side to facilitate unimpeded maritime transit of cargo in coordination with our Turkish partners. This also applies to the export of grain from Ukrainian ports,” the Kremlin said, summarising a phone call with Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Turkey’s president.

 

EU steps up effort to bring millions of tonnes of grain out of Ukraine <- this is paywalled for me now, I got to read it a few times for free though.

 

Maybe Erdogan can tell us shortly how this is all lies?

 

Quote

Peskov :

"We are potentially on the verge of a very deep food crisis linked to the introduction of illegal restrictions against us and the actions of Ukrainian authorities who have mined the path to the Black Sea and are not shipping grain from there despite Russia not impeding in any way."

 

Guardian updates

 

Still all Russia's fault, right? We're supposed to just assume that Peskov is lying I suppose. Maybe Zelensky can update us later on why this is all made up and how not removing mines from Odesa so that there's no chance of grain getting out is a good thing.

 

I checked and this is his most recent tweet, maybe this will be solved soon :

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Still all Russia's fault, right?

There is a Russian blockade of the Black Sea. Warships and Submarines. The mines are there because of that. If you take the mines away there’s still a blockade, so all you achieve is making it easier for Russia. So yes. It’s Russia’s fault. You know, because of the illegal invasion and blockade. Assigning blame to the victim for trying to push back isn’t much better than blaming a murder victim for getting the floor wet. The fact you’re choosing to spend your time trying to somehow deflect at least some of the blame from Russia indicates something quite unsavoury. 

[Red Phoenix]

4 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

There is a Russian blockade of the Black Sea. Warships and Submarines. The mines are there because of that. If you take the mines away there’s still a blockade, so all you achieve is making it easier for Russia. So yes. It’s Russia’s fault. You know, because of the illegal invasion and blockade. Assigning blame to the victim for trying to push back isn’t much better than blaming a murder victim for getting the floor wet. The fact you’re choosing to spend your time trying to somehow deflect at least some of the blame from Russia indicates something quite unsavoury. 

 

Yeah it's unsavoury wondering why Russia are saying they'll allow the ships through and warning of a food crisis and Ukraine are still keeping the mines there.

 

Very unsavoury.

 

Maybe it'll actually take Turkey to break this narrative.

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, SasaS said:

People should really decide, are sanctions hurting Russia or not, it cannot be both ways. "Sanctions are bad and should be lifted, but they are not working anyway."

BTW, that is a current account surplus, which is most likely boosted by collapsing imports, and that may adversely affect the economy beyond Q1.  

I'd say they are hurting most of the world although my guess is the Russian people may prove a tad more resilient than us. We went into a collective meltdown the other month when Nandos had a weekend shortage of Piri Piri sauce.

[Numero Veinticinco]

19 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah it's unsavoury wondering why Russia are saying they'll allow the ships through and warning of a food crisis and Ukraine are still keeping the mines there.

 

Very unsavoury.

 

Maybe it'll actually take Turkey to break this narrative.

I’m pretty sure nothing will break your belief in what Russia claim.

[SasaS]

I don't get it, why would Ukraine block the export of its own grain, for which it desperately needs the money? And which it desperately needs to move to make space for the new harvest? 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, SasaS said:

I don't get it, why would Ukraine block the export of its own grain, for which it desperately needs the money? And which it desperately needs to move to make space for the new harvest? 

Because the Russian said. If that's not good enough for you, then you're clearly just a Sh(r)ill for Big Grain. 

[Red Phoenix]

Like I said, it might take Turkey to resolve this. Or some other country because we're just getting arguments from either side and nothing else at the moment.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Red Phoenix said:

Like I said, it might take Turkey to resolve this. Or some other country because we're just getting arguments from either side and nothing else at the moment.

We are, indeed, getting arguments from either side. It's about who you believe and why, and also what other corroborating evidence and logic is there to help the decision making process. In this case, you've got one side growing grain, storing grain, holding grain that'll soon rot, wanting to sell grain, desperately needing to sell grain, who have never held the world hostage for grain, and then you've got the other side who are telling lies about invading a country they're clearly invading, have taken parts of their country before, are taking parts again, and are holding the ports and seas the traffic would flow from hostage. 

 

If you come to the conclusion that it's just two sides arguing, there's something else going on. 

[Rico1304]

It’s not as if Russia has form for starving millions of people is it? 

[Red Phoenix]

19 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

We are, indeed, getting arguments from either side. It's about who you believe and why, and also what other corroborating evidence and logic is there to help the decision making process. In this case, you've got one side growing grain, storing grain, holding grain that'll soon rot, wanting to sell grain, desperately needing to sell grain, who have never held the world hostage for grain, and then you've got the other side who are telling lies about invading a country they're clearly invading, have taken parts of their country before, are taking parts again, and are holding the ports and seas the traffic would flow from hostage. 

 

If you come to the conclusion that it's just two sides arguing, there's something else going on. 

 

There is something else going on : Russia are controlling the sea where the ships need to get through. They've said the grain can pass and we don't know if they're lying or not. Nobody has any proof one way or the other. Ships might get through, they might not.

 

We also have Ukrainian mines at the port. If they're not removed no grain is getting out. There's no ships might get through and they might not about this one I don't think, they're simply not moving if those mines remain.

 

So we can keep blaming Russia but there's not one shred of proof that they're blocking a single grain ship if nobody removes the mines. There's no way around this because there's no ship with grain in it for the Russians to block, the mines prevent the grain ships from moving.

 

That's why it might take Turkey or some other country to step in and help.