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Russia v Ukraine


Bjornebye
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32 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

Has the media or any leaders from the EU, US or Canada voiced concerns about the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion in the Ukraine recently?

 

I'm just asking because one idiot with one swastika flag was apparently enough to denounce an entire weeks long protest in Canada that's got worldwide attention, but sending millions worth of weapons from all over the place to the Ukraine seems ok.

 

If you're not getting it yet : it's called hypocrisy.

The 'West' are sending weapons to the Ukrainian Army because they are being threatened by one of the world's superpowers (and no doubt pocketing some change in the process). The Azov Battalion is a tiny part of the Ukrainian army, and the political inclinations of a minority should not prevent the defence of the majority.

 

 

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I find all this interesting from an historical perspective.

 

When we study WW2, we think the decision to go to war was made with the full support of the nation. In reality it wasn't - many had misgivings. Many didn't want war after the experience of WW1, and many felt communism was the true enemy rather than Nazism. Many were even sympathetic to Germany's territorial claims.

 

Declaring war on Germany was not supported by the entire nation - many defended Germany and spoke about Britain's hipocrisy and the military industrial influence just like Red Phoenix and Gnasher are doing in this thread. You can see why the spreading of 5th columnist rumours would have been so effective.

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1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

Has the media or any leaders from the EU, US or Canada voiced concerns about the neo-Nazi Azov Battalion in the Ukraine recently?

 

I'm just asking because one idiot with one swastika flag was apparently enough to denounce an entire weeks long protest in Canada that's got worldwide attention, but sending millions worth of weapons from all over the place to the Ukraine seems ok.

 

If you're not getting it yet : it's called hypocrisy.

It wasn’t one idiot with one swastika. Stop lying you bad colander headed fucking blert 

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34 minutes ago, M_B said:

The 'West' are sending weapons to the Ukrainian Army because they are being threatened by one of the world's superpowers (and no doubt pocketing some change in the process). The Azov Battalion is a tiny part of the Ukrainian army, and the political inclinations of a minority should not prevent the defence of the majority.

 

There's no fucking excuse for not at least voicing concern. None at all.

16 minutes ago, M_B said:

I find all this interesting from an historical perspective.

 

When we study WW2, we think the decision to go to war was made with the full support of the nation. In reality it wasn't - many had misgivings. Many didn't want war after the experience of WW1, and many felt communism was the true enemy rather than Nazism. Many were even sympathetic to Germany's territorial claims.

 

Declaring war on Germany was not supported by the entire nation - many defended Germany and spoke about Britain's hipocrisy and the military industrial influence just like Red Phoenix and Gnasher are doing in this thread. You can see why the spreading of 5th columnist rumours would have been so effective.

 

Russia are a nuclear superpower so if we decide to "go to war" it's probably the end of our species as we know it.

 

There's no fucking way I am ever supporting Ukrainian fucking nazis or our shit lying governments in this. It's nothing fucking like WW2, Germany didn't have an arsenal of nuclear weapons and there's fucking zero evidence that Russia are trying to do anything like what Hitler did.

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30 minutes ago, M_B said:

I find all this interesting from an historical perspective.

 

When we study WW2, we think the decision to go to war was made with the full support of the nation. In reality it wasn't - many had misgivings. Many didn't want war after the experience of WW1, and many felt communism was the true enemy rather than Nazism. Many were even sympathetic to Germany's territorial claims.

 

Declaring war on Germany was not supported by the entire nation - many defended Germany and spoke about Britain's hipocrisy and the military industrial influence just like Red Phoenix and Gnasher are doing in this thread. You can see why the spreading of 5th columnist rumours would have been so effective.

I also remember a piece in Bill Bryson's book ' A short history of nearly everything ' reporting that the Lord Halifax, part of the war cabinet strongly supported suing for peace in 1940.  Churchill had to rely on the 2 Labour votes ( Attlee and Greenwood ) along with the tacit support  of the Liberal leader ( Archibald Sinclair ) who had been co-opted into the cabinet, to keep us fighting. I think Bryson described Arthur Greenwood as the most important British politician that nobody has ever heard of, and it explains why Clementine Churchill was fuming with Winston when he descended into personal insults of Attlee during the 1945 election campaiign.

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3 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's no fucking excuse for not at least voicing concern. None at all.

 

Russia are a nuclear superpower so if we decide to "go to war" it's probably the end of our species as we know it.

 

There's no fucking way I am ever supporting Ukrainian fucking nazis or our shit lying governments in this. It's nothing fucking like WW2, Germany didn't have an arsenal of nuclear weapons and there's fucking zero evidence that Russia are trying to do anything like what Hitler did.

You are aware there are far right volunteers fighting for the other side too?

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15 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

It wasn’t one idiot with one swastika. Stop lying you bad colander headed fucking blert 

 

Show me the others then. There was one flag I saw and two confederate flags, one of the guys got called out too and walked off with his face covered. Most people didn't have their faces covered but that guy just happened to be different.

 

And seeing as that bothered you so much I'm guessing you're really fucking concerned about the Azov Battalion right? Seeing as they aren't just waving flags around but they're being armed by us.

 

What's worse? An armed battalion of neo-Nazis or a few flags being waved around?

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Just now, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's no fucking excuse for not at least voicing concern. None at all.

 

Russia are a nuclear superpower so if we decide to "go to war" it's probably the end of our species as we know it.

 

There's no fucking way I am ever supporting Ukrainian fucking nazis or our shit lying governments in this. It's nothing fucking like WW2, Germany didn't have an arsenal of nuclear weapons and there's fucking zero evidence that Russia are trying to do anything like what Hitler did.

There is a lot of evidence Russia is threatening Ukraine so it's right that the 'main stream' media is focusing its attention on that, and Russia isn't threatening Ukraine because of the political leanings of the Azov Battalion.

 

We aren't going to war with Russia over Ukraine so you needn't worry. We'll just join the Americans with some economic sanctions that won't really hurt them.

 

And whilst Germany didnt have nuclear weapons, they did have the worlds largest bomber fleet that was feared throughout Europe.

 

 

So by your post - are you happy for Russia to invade Ukraine, kill a lot of people, and replace the goverment with a puppet authority controlled by the Kremlin? I'm not saying we should start world war 3 to prevent it, but are you happy for that to happen? Because it sounds like you are.

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Just now, SasaS said:

You are aware there are far right volunteers fighting for the other side too?

 

They should be called out too then. And are we arming then? Nope, so we should be more concerned about those we're arming. They should be fucking kicked straight out of the Ukrainian army and our weapons shouldn't ever be going anywhere near them.

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Just now, M_B said:

So by your post - are you happy for Russia to invade Ukraine, kill a lot of people, and replace the goverment with a puppet authority controlled by the Kremlin? I'm not saying we should start world war 3 to prevent it, but are you happy for that to happen? Because it sounds like you are.

 

No, I'm happy for no side unless they negotiate peace. I'm anti-war, and no that doesn't mean "anti-west".

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4 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

No, I'm happy for no side unless they negotiate peace. I'm anti-war, and no that doesn't mean "anti-west".

The Russians aren't interested in peace. They are going to invade. Their appearance at the negotiating table is fake.

 

 

There are almost 40 battalions in the Ukrainian Army, excluding support battalions. You dont think 39 of them should receive military support because 1 of them has right wing leanings?

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, M_B said:

The Russians aren't interested in peace. They are going to invade. Their appearance at the negotiating table is fake.

 

And the US gov are a bunch of hippies that just want peace. They're probably trying to get them to invade so they can try and get Nord Stream 2 cancelled and dish out more sanctions. It is the United Sanctions of America we're talking about here.

 

A country that did what they did to Iraq and Libya has no credibility at all in this. They should probably stay the fuck out of it and let European countries try to sort it. But we know they won't because the US gov, especially under Dems lately, is obsessed with war and Putin lives rent free in their heads.

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8 minutes ago, M_B said:

There are almost 40 battalions in the Ukrainian Army, excluding support battalions. You dont think 39 of them should receive militart support because 1 of them has right wing leanings?

 

Why do you have to twist what I'm saying so much? Is this supposed to be how we have an honest conversation? I think we should at the very least voice serious concern and that should be echoed throughout the media. And I'd prefer to see every one of them kicked the fuck out of the Ukrainian military or we send them no weapons at all. But the Ukrainian president probably doesn't give a shit about Nazis which would be similar to what our govs are like.

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1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

And the US gov are a bunch of hippies that just want peace. They're probably trying to get them to invade so they can try and get Nord Stream 2 cancelled and dish out more sanctions. It is the United Sanctions of America we're talking about here.

 

A country that did what they did to Iraq and Libya has no credibility at all in this. They should probably stay the fuck out of it and let European countries try to sort it. But we know they won't because the US gov, especially under Dems lately, is obsessed with war and Putin lives rent free in their heads.

And here you are excusing Russia by drawing on the hiposcrisy of the Americans.

 

Europe cannot stand alone against Russia. That is why NATO exists.

 

Sorry Red, but you come across as a russian patsy. That may not be the case, but you are doing everything except calling out the Russians for their aggression.

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2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Why do you have to twist what I'm saying so much? Is this supposed to be how we have an honest conversation? I think we should at the very least voice serious concern and that should be echoed throughout the media. And I'd prefer to see every one of them kicked the fuck out of the Ukrainian military or we send them no weapons at all. But the Ukrainian president probably doesn't give a shit about Nazis which would be similar to what our govs are like.

Because whilst those concerns are valid, they are irrelevant to whether or not the West should support Ukraine in this crisis.

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4 minutes ago, M_B said:

And here you are excusing Russia by drawing on the hiposcrisy of the Americans.

 

Europe cannot stand alone against Russia. That is why NATO exists.

 

Sorry Red, but you come across as a russian patsy. That may not be the case, but you are doing everything except calling out the Russians for their aggression.

 

"Russian aggression." The most overused phrase that I know of that's been trotted out by the media and politicians for years on end.

 

3 minutes ago, M_B said:

Because whilst those concerns are valid, they are irrelevant to whether or not the West should support Ukraine in this crisis.

 

The fact that they aren't mentioned at all is the red flag.

 

US and UK govs, most EU govs, NATO, Atlantic Council and our stupid fucking media are all filled with fucking frauds.

 

It can never, ever be accepted that maybe the west are at fault here because Putin lives rent free in the minds of so many people filled with propaganda.

 

Guess what? If the US hadn't backed a coup in 2014 in the Ukraine none of this would be happening.

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2 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

"Russian aggression." The most overused phrase that I know of that's been trotted out by the media and politicians for years on end.

 

 

The fact that they aren't mentioned at all is the red flag.

 

US and UK govs, most EU govs, NATO, Atlantic Council and our stupid fucking media are all filled with fucking frauds.

 

It can never, ever be accepted that maybe the west are at fault here because Putin lives rent free in the minds of so many people filled with propaganda.

 

Guess what? If the US hadn't backed a coup in 2014 in the Ukraine none of this would be happening.

Are you sure?

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This is from an article back in 2014, Ukrainian Nazis and the US being ok with them isn't some new thing, it runs back decades :

 

Quote

If you look at insignia being worn in Kiev in the street demonstrations and marches, you'll see SS division insignia still being worn. In fact, I was looking at photographs last night of it, and there was a whole formation marching, not with the 14th Division, but with the Second Division. It was a large division that did major battle around Ukraine, and these marchers were wearing the insignia on the armbands of the Second Division.


So this is a very clear record, and the OUN (Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists), even in its postwar publications, has called for ethno-genetically pure Ukrainian territory, which of course is simply calling for purging Jews, Poles and Russians from what they consider Ukrainian territory. Also, current leaders of Svoboda have made blatantly anti-Semitic remarks that call for getting rid of Muscovite Jews and so forth. They use this very coarse, threatening language that anybody knowing the history of World War II would tremble at. If they were living here, it would seem like they would start worrying about it.

Obviously these people don’t hold monopoly power in Ukraine, but they stepped up and the United States has been behind the Svoboda party and these Ukrainian nationalists. In fact, the US connections to them go back to World War II, and the United States has had a longstanding tie to the OUN, through the intelligence agencies—initially military intelligence, later the CIA.

. . .

Once the OUN got sponsored by the American security establishment intelligence agencies, they were embedded in a variety of ways in Europe as well, like Radio Free Europe, which is headquartered in Munich. A lot of these groups in the ABN were headquartered in Munich under the sponsorship of Radio Free Europe. From there, they ran various kinds of operations where they were trying to do work inside the Warsaw Pact countries. When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, a number of them moved back into Ukraine as well as the other respective countries and began setting up operations there, and organizing political parties. They reconstituted the veterans group of the Waffen SS, they held marches in the 1990s in Ukraine, and they organized political parties, in alliance with the United States, and became part of what was called the Orange Revolution in 2004, when they won the election there.

The prime minister [a reference to Viktor Yushchenko, president of Ukraine from 2005 to 2010] was closely allied with them. They worked with the new government to get veterans benefits for the Ukrainian SS division veterans, and they started establishing the statues and memorials and museums for Stepan Bandera, who was the leader of the OUN, and who I should say were despised by other Ukrainian nationalists because of their methods, because they were extreme and violent toward rival Ukrainian nationalist groups. So Bandera wasn’t a universal hero, but this group was so influential, in part because of its US connections, that if you go online and you Google "Lviv" and the word "Bandera" you’ll see monuments and statues and large posters and banners of Bandera’s likeness and large monuments—permanent erected monuments—on behalf of Bandera so they made this guy like he’s the George Washington of Ukraine.

That government was in power until 2010, when there was another election, and a new regime was elected with a lot of support from the East. Ukrainian nationalist groupings around the Orange Revolution were sharply divided against each other, and there was rampant corruption, and people voted them out. The United States was very aggressive in trying to keep the nationalists in power, but they lost the election. The United States was spending money through the National Endowment for Democracy, which was pumping money into various Ukrainian organizations, and they were doing the same thing in Russia and many other countries around the world as well. We’re talking about many millions of dollars a year to affect the politics of these countries.

 

 

Seven Decades of Nazi Collaboration: America’s Dirty Little Ukraine Secret

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10 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

No, they'd have invaded anyway because Putin is the new Hitler, obviously.

 

How about some context? Unlike in Russia, there have been several other changes of government before and after the "coup" in Ukraine. Every time elections fail to produce the administration Russia wants, there is some kind of trouble. Even the guy that was deposed in 2014, and after weeks of mass protests in which he ordered police to repeatedly fire on unarmed demonstrators (as a slightly more heavy handed approach than with Canada truckers), had been ousted only after he accepted the last minute Russian offer of economic aid and cooperation instead of already agreed and parliament-sanctioned deal with the EU.

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