Russia v Ukraine

[SasaS]

21 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yes but both Z and P must've had imput into this deal, which means a line of communication is there. I'd be surprised if the Russians let Azoz fighters free without some serious kickback. 

Why would you think they are not communicating all the time? It may not be directly or publicly but they are almost certainly talking.

They have not let the Azov fighters go yet. From the video of them clearing IEDs and mines, they don't look like they need or are wiling to surrender just like that. Those 211 they have moved already were filmed searched and treated like POWs. Somehow don't see Prokopenko and his staff accepting the same.

Ukrainians probably offered a lot of prisoners for this, all those high value pilots etc.

We will see what happens next.

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, SasaS said:

Why would you think they are not communicating all the time? It may not be directly or publicly but they are almost certainly talking.

They have not let the Azov fighters go yet. From the video of them clearing IEDs and mines, they don't look like they need or are wiling to surrender just like that. Those 211 they have moved already were filmed searched and treated like POWs. Somehow don't see Prokopenko and his staff accepting the same.

Ukrainians probably offered a lot of prisoners for this, all those high value pilots etc.

We will see what happens next.

 

OK I'll rephrase it to 'they've not only talked but come to an  agreement' and it's a big call. Possibly opening up other avenues of agreement on other issues?

[Gnasher]

 

[SasaS]

13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

OK I'll rephrase it to 'they've not only talked but come to an  agreement' and it's a big call. Possibly opening up other avenues of agreement on other issues?

We have yet to see how everything goes with this one. 

 

You can reach an agreement on an isolated issue when both sides have something to gain from it and lose without it.

 

Small matter of being invaded has the potential of standing in the way of a broader agreement.   

 

 

[DJLJ]

2 hours ago, SasaS said:

They have not let the Azov fighters go yet. From the video of them clearing IEDs and mines, they don't look like they need or are wiling to surrender just like that. Those 211 they have moved already were filmed searched and treated like POWs. Somehow don't see Prokopenko and his staff accepting the same.

Ukrainians probably offered a lot of prisoners for this, all those high value pilots etc.

We will see what happens next.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/russian-lawmaker-wants-ukraine-e2-80-99s-azovstal-fighters-to-get-death-penalty/ar-AAXns1t
 

the Russians are already proposing to reinstate the death penalty in Russia for them, so…

[Fugitive]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

 

Fucking hell

[SasaS]

6 minutes ago, DJLJ said:

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/russian-lawmaker-wants-ukraine-e2-80-99s-azovstal-fighters-to-get-death-penalty/ar-AAXns1t
 

the Russians are already proposing to reinstate the death penalty in Russia for them, so…

I don't think this guy was part of negotiations or privy to any potential deal.

[Gnasher]

Going well. As well as some predicted.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/17/homes-for-ukraine-refugees-being-left-homeless-uk

 

 

 

 

[Gnasher]

Not good this, if true;

 

 

 If 

[Section_31]

The Mariupol steelworks brouhaha is gonna make a cracking film one day. Starring Jon Bernthal and that Polish bird from Corry. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

On 17/05/2022 at 14:56, Gnasher said:

 

Didn't the Americans demobalise most of the weapons in Afghanistan before leaving?

Hmn, I didn't get a notification for this (or I did and clicked something else above), I wasn't meaning to dodge. Same with the below post. 

 

There's two things to consider regarding Afghanistan. There's the first, most obvious stuff; all the shit they literally dumped, some of which was disabled or destroyed before leaving and lots of stuff that was just left behind. The there's the equipment that was technically belonging to the ANA but was really part of the near 20 billion dollars worth of US equipment donated to them. Thousands of vehicles, planes, and many, many thousands of weapons, explosives, etc. It was incredibly embarrassing for the Americans. 

 

On 17/05/2022 at 13:36, SasaS said:

I don't quite understand this, if the US considers Ukraine an ally worth so much support, you would think they would trust them not to resell or resend the weapons, it's a sovereign nation considered, how ever remotely, for EU and NATO membership. I would also expect there is some built-in oversight of sensitive equipment, that is why they are sending modified drones and not giving them the latest rockets, drones and other thingies. It's not like there would be an ad on UKR e-bay or something, American howitzer in good condition, slight wear and tear, second owner, towing vehicle optional.

I have to say, this seems a bit naïve. It's not really about trust and being allied; the US won't really give two fucks about Ukraine in a 'there our buddies, so let's stick up for 'em' kind of way, they care about Russia and the strategic wins in the area. Like I say, it's a judgement call when assessing risk. The weapons aren't, generally, going up on eBay (though don't underestimate black market arms sales post-war), but what about areas that are either currently contested and/or taken via force by Russia or Belarussian SF? What about things that are taken after the war is over, either from Russian held areas, or by splinter groups in what is left in the East which will be governed and held by god-knows who. We've seen what happens in other wars when they eventually end.

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

 

"They support terrorist groups."

 

Turkey’s Double ISIS Standard

[TheHowieLama]

What's up with the poor Russian sap who has pled guilty to war crimes?

[JagSquared]

10 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

What's up with the poor Russian sap who has pled guilty to war crimes?

He pled guilty to killing an unarmed civilian Poor sap probably isn’t the words to describe him, unless he’s been coerced into a false confession?
 

But to answer your question from the reports I’ve read he’ll get given a life sentence. Some Russian media on the other hand is talking about death penalties for Ukrainian POWs they convict of crimes.  Granted that prob isn’t the views of the bulk of the russian people. 

[cochyn]

Ukraine's Minster of Defense's latest speech Looks like the world will have to buckle in for the long-haul:

 

Oleksii Reznikov at the EU Foreign Affairs Council on the level of Defense Ministers with the participation of the NATO Secretary General | Міноборони (mil.gov.ua)

 

So depressing. The longer this rabble is allowed to devastate Ukraine the greater the rest of the world suffer too as the ramifications ripple out.  The Russians gangsters are determined to drag the world down to their level of fear, hatred and depravity. We simply cannot let up and allow them to prevail. They are a cancer on the world. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

1 hour ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

"They support terrorist groups."

 

Turkey’s Double ISIS Standard

Erdogan is a proper cunt.

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, AngryOfTuebrook said:

Erdogan is a proper cunt.

Erdoğan is unintentionally doing the world a favour.

[SasaS]

2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Hmn, I didn't get a notification for this (or I did and clicked something else above), I wasn't meaning to dodge. Same with the below post. 

 

There's two things to consider regarding Afghanistan. There's the first, most obvious stuff; all the shit they literally dumped, some of which was disabled or destroyed before leaving and lots of stuff that was just left behind. The there's the equipment that was technically belonging to the ANA but was really part of the near 20 billion dollars worth of US equipment donated to them. Thousands of vehicles, planes, and many, many thousands of weapons, explosives, etc. It was incredibly embarrassing for the Americans. 

 

I have to say, this seems a bit naïve. It's not really about trust and being allied; the US won't really give two fucks about Ukraine in a 'there our buddies, so let's stick up for 'em' kind of way, they care about Russia and the strategic wins in the area. Like I say, it's a judgement call when assessing risk. The weapons aren't, generally, going up on eBay (though don't underestimate black market arms sales post-war), but what about areas that are either currently contested and/or taken via force by Russia or Belarussian SF? What about things that are taken after the war is over, either from Russian held areas, or by splinter groups in what is left in the East which will be governed and held by god-knows who. We've seen what happens in other wars when they eventually end.

 

 

I don't think the US has any or at least overly altruistic motives in this, however, that is a major test of their strength and influence. Now that they are all in with the support, they simply must win, i.e. Kiev government must win. After waiting a bit to see if Ukraine will fall quickly and not, they decided it is worth supporting them with heavy weapons, after that Rubicon has been crossed, it is too late for what if, when and how about, it's not like they are sending weapons to some Middle Eastern faction or Balkan warlord, this is different. Obviously, they will not be sending weapons that must not fall into unauthorized hands, with the rest, loss is an acceptable risk. Ukraine is now a major ally. What is naive about it?  

[Numero Veinticinco]

12 hours ago, SasaS said:

I don't think the US has any or at least overly altruistic motives in this, however, that is a major test of their strength and influence. Now that they are all in with the support, they simply must win, i.e. Kiev government must win. After waiting a bit to see if Ukraine will fall quickly and not, they decided it is worth supporting them with heavy weapons, after that Rubicon has been crossed, it is too late for what if, when and how about, it's not like they are sending weapons to some Middle Eastern faction or Balkan warlord, this is different. Obviously, they will not be sending weapons that must not fall into unauthorized hands, with the rest, loss is an acceptable risk. Ukraine is now a major ally. What is naive about it?  

Well, you just said what I said back to me about acceptable levels of risk and then asked me what's naïve about it; nothing about that is naïve. It's what I originally quoted and called naïve that I thought was a bit naïve. Specifically the comments 'trust not to sell' and 'Ukrainian eBay'. It's naïve, in my view, because there are more ways of undesirable groups getting hold of the weaponry provided by the West other than our 'trusted' allies being twats and selling them on eBay (I understand eBay is a flippant comment meant to mean 'sell them on the open market'). There is a level of factionalism in Ukraine, and some of those factions won't be quite as well aligned after the war. I'm not sure all of them are particularly well aligned now, but that's for another discussion. Also because the Ukraine being a sovereign nation with casting eyes toward the EU and NATO doesn't really say much about the disputed areas after the war and what's left behind after that. There's an established illegal arms trade in areas like Ukraine, so I think it's fair to raise concerns.

 

I'm not really sure where the misalignment is on this one, so I'll try to clarify to make it easier to understand my position and hopefully for you to clarify what exactly you're debating on this one. You started off by saying something like 'what are you going on about, all items are accounted for, Rand Paul (Paul) is being a dick'. Rand Paul is a dick, high fives all around on that one, but somewhere between reading the tweet and reading Red Phoenix's (RP) response to Rico's stock checking bollocks, the message has been somewhat mangled (I kinda love RP, but he's enough to mangle anyone's head) from 'spending oversight' by Paul to talk of weapons not being accounted for. Let's be clear, they know what they are sending. Anybody who thinks they would or should send weapons that aren't accounted for doesn't know what they're talking about, so we can put that to bed. I'm sure both of us agree that's not a thing. If that's your only gripe, then we're on the same page. If you think there's no issue with what happens to the weapons after because of our levels of trust and unlikely sales on eBay, then we're not. 

 

I suspect what has happened is RP has posted two things and thought they have some significant relevance to each other (they don't, but he can be forgiven for making a small leap on that one), and then we all seemingly started talking about different parts of his links. I was referring to the second thing; the Washington Post's article about arms trafficking, and control issues within the Ukraine. That's the area of RP's post - the only area in this entire discussion - where I think there's legitimate concern and risk. I want to be clear, I support a significant but sensible level of military aid being sent to the Ukraine to fight against the illegal invasion, and I don't think it should held up. Now knowing what I have an issue with, what's the misalignment between our views and/or what are you debating (with me... not your clearly legit rebuttal about stock checks or whatever)?

[Section_31]

Russia is deploying its 'Terminator tanks' apparently. 

 

It really is that kid you went to school with isn't it who claimed they had an Afterburner arcade cabinet in their bedroom but nobody was allowed to see it, because.

[Gnasher]

15 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Russia is deploying its 'Terminator tanks' apparently. 

 

It really is that kid you went to school with isn't it who claimed they had an Afterburner arcade cabinet in their bedroom but nobody was allowed to see it, because.

 

And another kids shouts out 'dats nufink, wait till I bring out my new Lazer weapons.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-blinding-laser-weapons-equipments-b2082434.html?amp#aoh=16529533721174&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

 

[Section_31]

3 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

And another kids shouts out 'dats nufink, wait till I bring out my new Lazer weapons.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-blinding-laser-weapons-equipments-b2082434.html?amp#aoh=16529533721174&csi=1&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From %1%24s

 

 

Yeah they reckoned they had a neural net AA gun a few years back which was clearly a gun with a lunchbox sellotaped to it. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

22 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Russia is deploying its 'Terminator tanks' apparently. 

 

It really is that kid you went to school with isn't it who claimed they had an Afterburner arcade cabinet in their bedroom but nobody was allowed to see it, because.

Ha, They’ll be referring to their BMPTs, which are actually meant to support tanks in urban areas. Bit late now. 

[SasaS]

Tom Cooper updated.

 

Popasna is the key now, he argues.

 

https://medium.com/@x_TomCooper_x/ukraine-war-17-18-may-2022-a30378cfbd32

Also, if anyone has a clue what is going on with this Azovstal evacuation, please do offer it. It looks to me like they have been fucked over by the Russians, or just made a stupid mistake. On one hand, it looks arranged (the surrender), on the other, Russians are shelling the plant again and the people coming out are cleary not being exchanged. 

[Lario]

3 hours ago, Section_31 said:

Russia is deploying its 'Terminator tanks' apparently. 

 

It really is that kid you went to school with isn't it who claimed they had an Afterburner arcade cabinet in their bedroom but nobody was allowed to see it, because.

If I had myself a flying giraffe, you'd have one in a box with a window.