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Russia v Ukraine


Bjornebye
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1 minute ago, Red Phoenix said:

Rand Paul on holding up the Ukraine aid :

 

 

The next day :

 

 

This is a drop in the ocean in terms of military hardware getting into the wrong hands, to be honest. When you consider what they just up and left in Afghanistan and are now in the hands of the Taliban... the threat isn't high. 

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8 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

This is a drop in the ocean in terms of military hardware getting into the wrong hands, to be honest. When you consider what they just up and left in Afghanistan and are now in the hands of the Taliban... the threat isn't high. 

 

I'm not sure how it'll compare when all of the other countries with these problems are factored in but still think it would've helped if they'd kept track of what was going on more.

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22 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Excellent comment by the ol' boy. He said a couple of very astute things in there that all bar the very good military analysts in the west are saying. At least from what I've seen. 

Quite enjoyed how everytime the lady towed the party line he shot her dwn (sorry for the pun) and then laid it down on the line in clear terms. Most of the world hates them.

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7 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I'm not sure how it'll compare when all of the other countries with these problems are factored in but still think it would've helped if they'd kept track of what was going on more.

Can I volunteer you to do the stock take? Maybe Mane Man could hold your clipboard.  

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16 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Can I volunteer you to do the stock take? Maybe Mane Man could hold your clipboard.  

 

I already did. They sent a reply back with this :

 

"Thanks for volunteering to do the stock take. Here's our quick response :

 

1. We've seen all of your posts in the Russia vs Ukraine thread on the GF.

 

2. Fuck off."

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31 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Slightly easier said than done. 

 

I suppose if they did actually check everything that was going over there or in Rico's words did a stock take it'd hold everything up more. And then Trump and the Republicans would only demand a recount anyway.

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What are you talking about? There are entire itemized lists of what went to Ukraine all over the Internet, if anything, the military assistance is way too transparent, "we will send 700 drones, 100 has already been sent after we trained that many soldiers here here and here, here is the photo of drones being loaded, here is them being unloaded in Poland, here is the photo of the next batch..."

 

Rand Paul is just being a dick, because all these US libertarians are isolationists and hate any kind of government spending.

 

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14 minutes ago, SasaS said:

What are you talking about? There are entire itemized lists of what went to Ukraine all over the Internet, if anything, the military assistance is way too transparent, "we will send 700 drones, 100 has already been sent after we trained that many soldiers here here and here, here is the photo of drones being loaded, here is them being unloaded in Poland, here is the photo of the next batch..."

 

Rand Paul is just being a dick, because all these US libertarians are isolationists and hate any kind of government spending.

 

What they’re sending isn’t what’s being spoken as the issue, where and to whom that equipment goes when the fighting is done… that’s the issue. It’s a valid concern when judging military aid, but it should stop vital aid getting through and there’s an acceptable margin of uncertainty. 

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1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

What they’re sending isn’t what’s being spoken as the issue, where and to whom that equipment goes when the fighting is done… that’s the issue. It’s a valid concern when judging military aid, but it should stop vital aid getting through and there’s an acceptable margin of uncertainty. 

I don't quite understand this, if the US considers Ukraine an ally worth so much support, you would think they would trust them not to resell or resend the weapons, it's a sovereign nation considered, how ever remotely, for EU and NATO membership. I would also expect there is some built-in oversight of sensitive equipment, that is why they are sending modified drones and not giving them the latest rockets, drones and other thingies. It's not like there would be an ad on UKR e-bay or something, American howitzer in good condition, slight wear and tear, second owner, towing vehicle optional.

 

***

 

 

https://medium.com/@x_TomCooper_x/ukraine-war-16-and-17-may-2022-2a79fc72e730

 

Tom Cooper updated again, he could not wait because he thinks situation around Severodenetsk and Popasna is pretty dramatic. Not much more on Azovstal operation than we already know.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

This is a drop in the ocean in terms of military hardware getting into the wrong hands, to be honest. When you consider what they just up and left in Afghanistan and are now in the hands of the Taliban... the threat isn't high. 

 

Didn't the Americans demobalise most of the weapons in Afghanistan before leaving?

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1 hour ago, SasaS said:

What are you talking about? There are entire itemized lists of what went to Ukraine all over the Internet, if anything, the military assistance is way too transparent, "we will send 700 drones, 100 has already been sent after we trained that many soldiers here here and here, here is the photo of drones being loaded, here is them being unloaded in Poland, here is the photo of the next batch..."

 

Rand Paul is just being a dick, because all these US libertarians are isolationists and hate any kind of government spending.

 

Your last paragraph would carry more weight if the rest hadn't tried to rubber stamp 40 billion quids worth of aid to Ukraine whilst the USA is short of baby milk. Paul is an isolated voice.

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2 hours ago, SasaS said:

What are you talking about? There are entire itemized lists of what went to Ukraine all over the Internet, if anything, the military assistance is way too transparent, "we will send 700 drones, 100 has already been sent after we trained that many soldiers here here and here, here is the photo of drones being loaded, here is them being unloaded in Poland, here is the photo of the next batch..."

 

Rand Paul is just being a dick, because all these US libertarians are isolationists and hate any kind of government spending.

 

 

Isn't it Trump and the right wing tub thumpers kicking up a fuss? Might be wrong.

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39 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Your last paragraph would carry more weight if the rest hadn't tried to rubber stamp 40 billion quids worth of aid to Ukraine whilst the USA is short of baby milk. Paul is an isolated voice.

You will be short of many things if this war doesn't end relatively soon with Russian troops withdrawing from Ukraine.

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1 minute ago, SasaS said:

You will be short of many things if this war doesn't end relatively soon with Russian troops withdrawing from Ukraine.

 

I couldn't agree more. Interesting both sides have spoken over Mariupol, and managed some sort of agreement. All very cloudy but Interesting all the same.

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2 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

 

As far as I understand it, they were ordered to surrender Azovstal in exchange for getting them out. They could have surrendered anyway whenever they wanted it if some kind of a deal wasn't reached. Prokopenko didn't want to surrender Mariupol at any cost initially. Id they can truly get them out, it will be a military defeat but a great psychological relief for the General Stab, which I suspect was behind pushing to end it. The fact first 200 have been taken to the town immediately behind the front line would suggest they were will be a quick exchange. Hopefully.

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4 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

As far as I understand it, they were ordered to surrender Azovstal in exchange for getting them out. They could have surrendered anyway whenever they wanted it if some kind of a deal wasn't reached. Prokopenko didn't want to surrender Mariupol at any cost initially. Id they can truly get them out, it will be a military defeat but a great psychological relief for the General Stab, which I suspect was behind pushing to end it. The fact first 200 have been taken to the town immediately behind the front line would suggest they were will be a quick exchange. Hopefully.

 

I'd be amazed if Zelensky and Putin were not both involved in the discussions/developments. Which potentially opens doors if true.

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13 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

I'd be amazed if Zelensky and Putin were not both involved in the discussions/developments. Which potentially opens doors if true.

For what? I think you are reading way too much into this.

 

Russia had a problem: it didn't control all of Mariupol because it had a defending garrison holed up in the industrial zone. To take it, it would require big losses. To let them leave was not an option, because some of them are Azov and their existence was the reason for all this, according to Russian propaganda.

 

Ukraine had a problem, the remaining garrison in Mariupol was still resisting in the industrial zone, with constant appeals for help, which they couldn't provide. This is very bad for morale and unity, because the symbol of heroic resistance turned into a constant cloud over the Geenral Stab's head, what to do with them and what if they are overrun and Russians kill them all. 

 

So they likely reached a deal in which Russia would get all of Mariupol for now,  and be able to say Azov surrendered, and Ukraine would get their people out and have one less huge thing to worry about.

 

This is not going to end the war. There is no way Ukraine would give Mariupol up for good at this moment.

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3 minutes ago, SasaS said:

For what? I think you are reading way too much into this.

 

Russia had a problem: it didn't control all of Mariupol because it had a defending garrison holed up in the industrial zone. To take it, it would require big losses. To let them leave was not an option, because some of them are Azov and their existence was the reason for all this, according to Russian propaganda.

 

Ukraine had a problem, the remaining garrison in Mariupol was still resisting in the industrial zone, with constant appeals for help, which they couldn't provide. This is very bad for morale and unity, because the symbol of heroic resistance turned into a constant cloud over the Geenral Stab's head, what to do with them and what if they are overrun and Russians kill them all. 

 

So they likely reached a deal in which Russia would get all of Mariupol for now,  and be able to say Azov surrendered, and Ukraine would get their people out and have one less huge thing to worry about.

 

This is not going to end the war. There is no way Ukraine would give Mariupol up for good at this moment.

Yes but both Z and P must've had imput into this deal, which means a line of communication is there. I'd be surprised if the Russians let Azoz fighters free without some serious kickback. 

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