Russia v Ukraine

[dockers_strike]

Allegedly one of the first pictures of the damaged Russian cruiser Moscow, listing to port. She clearly didnt sink in choppy seas while under tow as the Russians claimed at least when this picture was taken.

 

She appears holed at the waterline allowing ingress of water and at this point, the crew having abandoned ship or worse.

 

 

As Ive said before, when a ship gets holed, it's a perilous position to be in. Providing water tight compartments are not compromised and there is power to pump water out, it doesnt always mean you lose the ship.

 

A few years ago, Nottigham, sister ship to Sheffield, collided with an outcrop of Howe Island badly damaging the bow underwater. Only a valiant effort by the ship's company prevented Nottingham sinking plus they had power for pumps.

 

A missile strike is an explosive event that can create lots of damage including loss of ability to pump water out and maintain bouyancy. Trying to put fires out with water also adds to the problem for obvious reasons.

 

Judging by this picture which appears to have been taken some hours after the alleged missile attack, the sea wasnt particularly choppy. That's not to say by the time they had her on tow the conditions hadnt worsened.

 

The chances of getting back to dock even if the sea had remained calm would have been remote in my view considering the list. If you have any hope of rescuing the ship, you need to get it back in a dock asap. But, you cant tow a ship with a big hole in its side quickly else you force even more water into damaged compartments making matters worse.

 

Maybe that's what the Russians did although it seems to me they knew the vessel was lost and clearly going to go down?

 

Either way, the missile(s) did their job.

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

That sea my have really been stormy as fuck. 

[dockers_strike]

9 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

That sea my have really been stormy as fuck. 

Yes, might have later but doesnt appear so at the time the picture was taken.

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Yes, might have later but doesnt appear so at the time the picture was taken.

Indeed. As usual, the Russians are talking absolute dogshit. It's standard for them to try to save face. 

[SasaS]

And the impact of the sinking of Moskva on the actual war on the ground is...?

[dockers_strike]

4 minutes ago, SasaS said:

And the impact of the sinking of Moskva on the actual war on the ground is...?

It was allegedly, long range missile launch platform, command and control for flight, potential shore bombardment and support for any amphibious landings and blockade of South West Ukraine.

 

However, Im not party to the Kremlin's plans so only they could tell you and even then, probably wouldnt. It's also a propaganda victory for one side and a loss of a capital ship for another.

 

 

[SasaS]

8 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

It was allegedly, long range missile launch platform, command and control for flight, potential shore bombardment and support for any amphibious landings and blockade of South West Ukraine.

 

However, Im not party to the Kremlin's plans so only they could tell you and even then, probably wouldnt. It's also a propaganda victory for one side and a loss of a capital ship for another.

 

 

It looks like Ukraine is at the moment in desperate need of some real victories, not propaganda victories.

 

Russians don't seem to have any problems launching missiles at them at will from as far as the Caspian Sea. If UKR can now hit other ships or the ports in Crimea or the bridge or seriously disrupt the flow of artillery ammunition to the south, yes. Otherwise, it seems a bit pointless.

[TheHowieLama]

Does anyone really think Ukraine is going to get "victories"?

[dockers_strike]

7 minutes ago, SasaS said:

It looks like Ukraine is at the moment in desperate need of some real victories, not propaganda victories.

 

Russians don't seem to have any problems launching missiles at them at will from as far as the Caspian Sea. If UKR can now hit other ships or the ports in Crimea or the bridge or seriously disrupt the flow of artillery ammunition to the south, yes. Otherwise, it seems a bit pointless.

I dont think we should underestimate the worth of 'propoganda' victories. It's also a real victory taking out one of the aggressor's major control assets.

 

As regards saying the sinking is a bit pointless, I think any battlefield commander or admiral would say the sinking wasnt pointless. You'd also need to ask if it was pointless, what was the thing doing there making itself a virtual sitting duck target in the first place?

 

It effectively means naval support for any land bridge objective Russia had to severe Ukraine's access to ports and the Black Sea is, severely disrupted and may make that objective now unachievable.

 

Any intended amphibious landing is now a much harder task without a ship that's capable of providing a substantial shore bombardment and support.

[SasaS]

13 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

I dont think we should underestimate the worth of 'propoganda' victories. It's also a real victory taking out one of the aggressor's major control assets.

 

As regards saying the sinking is a bit pointless, I think any battlefield commander or admiral would say the sinking wasnt pointless. You'd also need to ask if it was pointless, what was the thing doing there making itself a virtual sitting duck target in the first place?

 

It effectively means naval support for any land bridge objective Russia had to severe Ukraine's access to ports and the Black Sea is, severely disrupted and may make that objective now unachievable.

 

Any intended amphibious landing is now a much harder task without a ship that's capable of providing a substantial shore bombardment and support.

 

Are you sure about that? They have like dozens of other ships there, including Moskva's sister ship. They are saying Moskva's role was primarily to provide air-defence and additional anti-rocket defense to other ships. So, if they don't hit anything else soon, it is a bit pointless.

 

Russians are slowly but relentlessly pushing from three directions in the eastern Ukraine, UKR does not seem able to launch any sort of wider counteroffensive around Kharkiv to start pushing towards Kupiansk and endanger RUS offensive, they are not capable of attacking RUS flanks around Izyum, nor the reinforcements rolling in over Kapiansk, they are still being shelled by Grads in Mykolaev, the offensive around Kherson seems to be going nowhere, they are facing imminent disaster and human tragedy in Mariupol, they are being pounded by missiles like it's the first days of the war, their military industrial capabilities are apparently seriously depleted, they may be running out of artillery shells, and somehow time now looks to be working for the invaders.

 

I'm all for morale boosting spectaculars like the sinking of Moskva, but sorry, don't see how does that help much beyond the 24 hours of fist pumping celebrations.

 

[dockers_strike]

58 minutes ago, SasaS said:

 

Are you sure about that? They have like dozens of other ships there, including Moskva's sister ship. They are saying Moskva's role was primarily to provide air-defence and additional anti-rocket defense to other ships. So, if they don't hit anything else soon, it is a bit pointless.

 

Russians are slowly but relentlessly pushing from three directions in the eastern Ukraine, UKR does not seem able to launch any sort of wider counteroffensive around Kharkiv to start pushing towards Kupiansk and endanger RUS offensive, they are not capable of attacking RUS flanks around Izyum, nor the reinforcements rolling in over Kapiansk, they are still being shelled by Grads in Mykolaev, the offensive around Kherson seems to be going nowhere, they are facing imminent disaster and human tragedy in Mariupol, they are being pounded by missiles like it's the first days of the war, their military industrial capabilities are apparently seriously depleted, they may be running out of artillery shells, and somehow time now looks to be working for the invaders.

 

I'm all for morale boosting spectaculars like the sinking of Moskva, but sorry, don't see how does that help much beyond the 24 hours of fist pumping celebrations.

 

They only have 2 other Slava class cruisers, one stationed in the Arctic the other around the Indian Ocean. Both are within a week or so steaming of the Black Sea.

 

I gather Turkey has closed the Bosphorus to shipping but whether they'd prevent one or both cruisers passage, who knows?

 

Fact is, would the Russians want to put another Slava class cruiser in the firing line, literally, after this? The Neptune missiles allegedly used have a range of about 150 miles so, either the cruiser has to stand 150 miles offshore or sail closer as the Moscow did and be open to attack?

 

Yes, they have other ships. One got bombed to fuck and destroyed in harbour, another escaped with some damage. If a heavily armed Slava class cruiser couldnt defend itself, it asks the question about other ships similar capabilities.

 

Personally, I dont think it is as black or white as the sinking  is not much help. Militarily, it is a loss of a significant and expensive(!) asset. True, it will not cause the end of the fighting but it does impact Russia's operation in the theatre.

[Rico1304]

I can’t get my head around the idea that sinking a massive ship isn’t a good thing.   If you’ve got anti-ship missiles then surely every one not fired is a waste.  
 

Nearly as big a revelation as missiles being explosive and being hit by two being worse than being hit by one.  Staggering.  

[Strontium]

3 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

Does anyone really think Ukraine is going to get "victories"?

Yes, they're going to win the war.

This post has been certified as negged by a terrorist-supporting evil troll prick.

[Strontium]

Best two out of three?

 

This post has been certified as negged by a terrorist-supporting evil troll prick.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Negs really do need to be fucked off from this site. They add fuck all and just add to the arguing and bad feeling we see all over the place. They’ve been shite since the site switch. 

[SasaS]

39 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I can’t get my head around the idea that sinking a massive ship isn’t a good thing.   If you’ve got anti-ship missiles then surely every one not fired is a waste.  
 

Nearly as big a revelation as missiles being explosive and being hit by two being worse than being hit by one.  Staggering.  

If you mean me, I never said sinking Moskva isn't a good thing. But it isn't a thing that will win them the war.

Because, they have just lost Kreminna, a locality in the eastern Lughansk front, so. very important. The local administration head said they had to pull back because they only defended with about a platoon-sized force and they were attacked by some 40 armoured vehicles, which is something like a company or a small tank battalion if I am not mistaken. And is probably exaggerated in size in that description, because that is what you do when you lose ground, so may have been smaller.

Now, I thought, OK, it's some village, you cannot defend anything. But it isn't. It's a town of nearly 20,000 people.

So, on one hand, they sunk a ship. On the other, they are losing towns in an area of critical importance to a force slightly stronger than a tank company.  Maybe you get it, sorry, I don't.  

[Bjornebye]

18 minutes ago, Strontium said:

Best two out of three?

 

This post has been certified as negged by a terrorist-supporting evil troll prick.

You lying wanker 

[Strontium]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Negs really do need to be fucked off from this site. They add fuck all and just add to the arguing and bad feeling we see all over the place. They’ve been shite since the site switch. 

 

It's like so many things in life, there's always a minority who can't be trusted not to abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

[Bjornebye]

6 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Negs really do need to be fucked off from this site. They add fuck all and just add to the arguing and bad feeling we see all over the place. They’ve been shite since the site switch. 

Nah. Only a narcissist would be that arsed about them. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Strontium said:

 

It's like so many things in life, there's always a minority who can't be trusted not to abuse it and ruin it for everyone.

Erm …..

 

 

 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Nah. Only a narcissist would be that arsed about them. 

It reckon goes beyond that, mate. I negged some cunt the other day, the response was him going through the history revenge begging all his negs on me. Which then got reciprocated. They mean nothing but they add nothing. It just adds to people arguing. Do you reckon it brings something to the place then?

[Bjornebye]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

It reckon goes beyond that, mate. I negged some cunt the other day, the response was him going through the history revenge begging all his negs on me. Which then got reciprocated. They mean nothing but they add nothing. It just adds to people arguing. Do you reckon it brings something to the place then?

Nah it just winds that lying twat up. Other than that I think they’re a bit shite and all. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Apologies for the derailment. I’ll take it to the MF. 

[SasaS]

4 hours ago, TheHowieLama said:

Does anyone really think Ukraine is going to get "victories"?

Yes, since they already "got" a few.

[dockers_strike]

Fucking twats.

 

This is the moment a woman in Kharkiv, above and below, mourned over her father after he was killed in the latest round of shelling of Ukraine’s second city.

The woman is comforted as the body of her father is removed by medical workers Credit: Alkis Konstantinidis/Reuters

Authorities in Kharkiv on Monday morning told residents to spend the whole day in bomb shelters, citing unrelenting shelling that has intensified as the battle for Donbas gathers momentum.

 

Kharkiv authorities said a man and a woman died as a result of the strike just before noon. Photographers with Associated Press said later at least three people were killed.

 

One of the dead was a woman who appeared to be going out to collect water in the rain. She was found lying with a water canister and an umbrella by her side.

Ukrainian personnel run for cover after explosions are heard in Kharkiv on Sunday Credit: Felipe Dana/AP

A separate video posted on a local Telegram channel showed what it said were explosions in Novi Domy in the southwest of the city during the day.

 

Several parked cars were destroyed in the strike but it was not immediately clear if there were any casualties.

 

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky said that in the past four days 18 people had been killed and 106 injured by Russian bombardment of Kharkiv.

 

Nine civilians were killed and 25 injured by missile and artillery fire in the region on Sunday alone.

 

Ukraine’s general staff said on Monday evening that Russian forces had gone on the offensive in the Kharkiv and Donetsk regions in what it described as “signs of the beginning of the offensive operation in the Eastern Operational Zone”.

 

Russian forces appeared to be trying to pin down Ukrainian forces at Slobozhansky near Kharkiv while unsuccessfully trying to gain ground near Izyum, it said.

An apartment building on fire in the city Credit: Alex Chan Tsz Yuk/SOPA Images/Shutterstock

Firefighters attend a burning building after the shelling Credit: Alex Chan Tsz Yuk//SOPA Images/Shutterstock

Earlier Serhiy Haidai, governor of the Donetsk region, said Russian forces had taken control of the villages of Kremenaya and Lugashchnine, both northwest of the town of Severodonetsk.

 

“Evacuation from there is already impossible,” he wrote on Telegram early in the morning. Residents of Luhansk were warned that this was their last chance to evacuate.

 

Ukraine on Sunday launched a counter offensive designed to cut supply lines to Izyum, where Russian appears to be massing the troops for the northern trust of an encirclement of Donbas, the mainly Russian speaking and heavily industrialised region where war first broke out in 2014.

 

The Russian military said on Monday its missiles struck more than 20 military targets in eastern and central Ukraine over the past day, as it stepped up a campaign to hit weapons factories, railways and other infrastructure targets before the offensive.

 

Residents of Vasylkiv, a town south of Kyiv that is home to a military airbase, reported a large explosion on Monday morning.

 

Russian missiles also hit Lviv, killing at least seven people, according to Maksym Kozytsky, its regional governor.

 

“At the moment, we are able to confirm that seven people have died. We also know that 11 people are injured. A child is among them,” he said.

 

"Three victims are in critical condition," he added.

Mr Kozytsky confirmed there were four missile strikes with three hitting military infrastructure and one a tyre shop.

 

Lviv, Ukraine's most western city close to its border with Poland, has largely been spared from attacks since Russia invaded on Feb 24.

But its mayor warned the city "must be ready" for further attacks.

Andriy Sadovyi told Fox News: "We must be ready for a new Russian attack. And together we must protect our country.

 

"It is a very special moment in our life. We have only one country, we have only one land. I believe in our victory, never give up. Only victory."

 

Mykhaylo Podolyak, a presidential adviser, said: “Five powerful missile strikes at once on the civilian infrastructure of the old European city of Lviv,”

 

Video posted on social media sites showed smoke in the area after the blast. It was not immediately clear what was hit and there was no official confirmation from authorities.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/04/18/russia-bombs-18-residential-buildings-easter-sunday-attack-kharkiv/