Russia v Ukraine

[Rico1304]

Nothing says ‘Nazi’ more than invading a neighbouring country and systematically murdering, torturing and raping the population.   

[Captain Howdy]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

Nothing says ‘Nazi’ more than invading a neighbouring country and systematically murdering, torturing and raping the population.   

But Biden and NATO

[Captain Howdy]

12 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

There's a bunch of people that have very little interest in a ceasefire and talks, I'm opposed to that. Have said so for weeks. Anti-war not anti-west. If you want to reduce the entire west to Joe Biden, NATO and whatever other militarism shit that's up to you, but the west to me is a whole lot more than that and it's why I'm not anti-west.

Well Uncle Joe, NATO and the “rest of the gang” whatever the fuck that is, y’know that’s a pretty big slice of the West.

[Red Phoenix]

7 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

You’ve been nothing but a Putin apologist on here for an appalling atrocity.

 

Yeah Putin apologist, just like the Labour members that were made to have their signatures removed from the Stop the War statement. Good the way I'm psychic too, I was going on about Ukraine in threads here 8 years ago.

[TheHowieLama]

Just now, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah Putin apologist, just like the Labour members that were made to have their signatures removed from the Stop the War statement. Good the way I'm psychic too, I was going on about Ukraine in threads here 8 years ago.

During the first invasion.

[Captain Howdy]

6 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah Putin apologist, just like the Labour members that were made to have their signatures removed from the Stop the War statement. Good the way I'm psychic too, I was going on about Ukraine in threads here 8 years ago.

You are 100% a Putin apologist 

[Red Phoenix]

2 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

During the first invasion.

 

And the coup.

 

Yep, that's unacceptable, it's somehow equal to supporting all types of Russian war crimes, being anti-West, Putin apologist, Kremlin bot, etc.

 

So I'm off again for a while.

[Captain Howdy]

37 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

And the coup.

 

Yep, that's unacceptable, it's somehow equal to supporting all types of Russian war crimes, being anti-West, Putin apologist, Kremlin bot, etc.

 

So I'm off again for a while.

Good, have a long think and give your head an almighty wobble.

[dockers_strike]

Im sorry but it is a gross simplification to say people want the 'war' in Ukraine to continue. That says nothing about subjugating an entire nation to the will of the oppressor. And ending the 'war' without recourse to the consequences means the oppressor wins.

 

Some of this stuff sounds like a pacifist's utopia. Stop the fighting at any cost but, there's no such thing as any cost because any cost really means at one cost to the invaded.

 

If people want to be pacifists that's up to them. No one wants to fight for the sake of it or at least, very few do. But, unless you want to live under a regime where your only freedom is just about the freedom to breath and, even that can be taken away from you by the despots at their will, sometimes you draw a line in the sand and say 'Here and no further.'

 

Be a pacifist by all means but, never forget sometimes people have to fight to protect your right to be a 'pacifist.' Some despots would have you killed for expressing your pacifist views without any consideration at all.

[cochyn]

Listened to NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg on desert island disks today. Interesting guy: trained as a statistician and was president of Norway, twice. Presided over the country during the Oslo bombing and the Brejvik massacre. Talks the language of peace and engagement. Made me wonder whether he’s an useful lightning rod much as Johnson is for the Tory party. There to soak up the noise whilst those under him do the dirty work.

 

IMO it’s probable NATO are already ‘clandestinely’ balls deep in this war. There must be a reason why the RA havent established air superiority over Ukraine and are getting their arses handed to them on the battlefield. We’ll never likely know the truth. But given the depth and breadth of sanctions against Russia, there must be a coordinated proportionate and conclusive military response to Russian aggression. In short; economic actions are being complimented by proportional and appropriate military support. 

 

Cunts  like the red brigade on here might baulk at this theory. Fuck em. Good people are dying horribly at the hands of a morally corrupt and indiscriminate aggressor and whilst we can stop this, we must.

 

And fucking stop with this ‘who’s the biggest nazi shit. It’s a sideshow to mollify Russian babushkas into accepting the needless deaths of their sons In this pointless and illegal war. 

[SasaS]

They are doing a very good job of hiding it then. What are you basing this on?

[cochyn]

31 minutes ago, SasaS said:

They are doing a very good job of hiding it then. What are you basing this on?

A hunch really. But you have to wonder why for example the UK this week announced the deployment of (since superseced) harpoon anti-ship missiles two weeks after that russian supply ship was sunk in Berdyyansk harbour. And why russia’s naval bombardment of Odessa has mysteriously stopped. Also why is the russian air force conspicuously absent over all of Ukraine?

 

Yes, we’d like to believe NATO forces could put russia’s offensive into a cocked hat in a few weeks, But the Stoltsbergian doctrine be might be a more tactical response commensurate  with perceived Ukranian capabilities. This maintains the pretence of plausibile deniability of the proportionality of NATO’s involvement in this war. 

 

Im no expert but I doubt NATO would be this far to the war (supplies and trainings of UKR forces) without wanting to ensure the right result. Even if a proportional and under the radar response prolongs human suffering yet maintains the perception that NATO never laid a glove on Russia.

 

Edit; also all western response so far has been couched in terms of individual NATO nations’ contributions to the defence of Ukraine.

[Section_31]

41 minutes ago, cochyn said:

Listened to NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg on desert island disks today. Interesting guy: trained as a statistician and was president of Norway, twice. Presided over the country during the Oslo bombing and the Brejvik massacre. Talks the language of peace and engagement. Made me wonder whether he’s an useful lightning rod much as Johnson is for the Tory party. There to soak up the noise whilst those under him do the dirty work.

 

IMO it’s probable NATO are already ‘clandestinely’ balls deep in this war. There must be a reason why the RA havent established air superiority over Ukraine and are getting their arses handed to them on the battlefield. We’ll never likely know the truth. But given the depth and breadth of sanctions against Russia, there must be a coordinated proportionate and conclusive military response to Russian aggression. In short; economic actions are being complimented by proportional and appropriate military support. 

 

Cunts  like the red brigade on here might baulk at this theory. Fuck em. Good people are dying horribly at the hands of a morally corrupt and indiscriminate aggressor and whilst we can stop this, we must.

 

And fucking stop with this ‘who’s the biggest nazi shit. It’s a sideshow to mollify Russian babushkas into accepting the needless deaths of their sons In this pointless and illegal war. 

 

Oh definitely, I said before it's a 21st century war Vs a 1980s army.

 

The Russians are fucking around with tanks but the yanks will know what all their troops had for breakfast. 

 

That's why so many of their generals have been offed I reckon. 

[SasaS]

It would be difficult to hide that kind of involvement. Some special operatives are probably in the field and there are military intelligence people among the volunteers, possibly some of the weaponry has come with "instructors", but Russia does have significant air dominance and is capable of destroying  UKR depots and facilities all over the country. Apparently, air superiority over Donbas has been achieved, which they say is in line with the doctrine of supporting combat troops. There is probably a lot of troops movement monitoring  from above by the US, but that is probably it.

 

Russia would not be silent about serious involvement, or if they would, where do you think would be the line where they would speak up and escalate?

[dockers_strike]

58 minutes ago, cochyn said:

Listened to NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg on desert island disks today. Interesting guy: trained as a statistician and was president of Norway, twice. Presided over the country during the Oslo bombing and the Brejvik massacre. Talks the language of peace and engagement. Made me wonder whether he’s an useful lightning rod much as Johnson is for the Tory party. There to soak up the noise whilst those under him do the dirty work.

 

IMO it’s probable NATO are already ‘clandestinely’ balls deep in this war. There must be a reason why the RA havent established air superiority over Ukraine and are getting their arses handed to them on the battlefield. We’ll never likely know the truth. But given the depth and breadth of sanctions against Russia, there must be a coordinated proportionate and conclusive military response to Russian aggression. In short; economic actions are being complimented by proportional and appropriate military support. 

 

Cunts  like the red brigade on here might baulk at this theory. Fuck em. Good people are dying horribly at the hands of a morally corrupt and indiscriminate aggressor and whilst we can stop this, we must.

 

And fucking stop with this ‘who’s the biggest nazi shit. It’s a sideshow to mollify Russian babushkas into accepting the needless deaths of their sons In this pointless and illegal war. 

Im certain NATO are heavily involved clandestine. Now might be the time to assist Ukraine with even more defensive capability? After the missile attack on the railway station in the East of Ukraine, one wonders how many more red lines are going to be ignored?

 

Yes, Ive said Im shit scared of this going nuclear previously but, I have a very big and growing unease about endless numbers of civilians being deliberately targeted by Putin's mob.

[cochyn]

Totally. Pound for pound, NATO forces in Europe together with the Ukrainian-army and the interoperability they’ve fostered under their NATO associate agreements  right now would eviscerate the russian army. It’s likely this is why Zelenskyy is railing against NATO right now. As well he should....

 

My hunch is NATO chooses to play ‘slowly slowly catchy monkey’ with Russia in order to maintain its ‘defensive alliance’ MO.

 

its frustrating to see but understandable.I think the nuclear threat is a bluff as even Putin realises the ramifications are unthinkable. And FWIW I think he’s been informed in no uncertain terms that level of escalation would be beyond an existential threat to Russia.

 

As in Kosovo, if provable genocide is evident it’s game on for NATO to intervene directly.

[SasaS]

If that were so, Russia wouldn't have invaded.

 

And why would they be silent about NATO involvement, their main challenge remains how to frame this war. With NATO in Ukraine, it would be much easier to go from a "special military operation" agains the Nazis to an all-out defensive war against NATO, with widespread mobilization.

[SasaS]

Also, there are procedural problems, I don't think either NATO or the US can run stealth engagements of this scale, against a nuclear power such as Russia, without a mandate.

[cochyn]

44 minutes ago, SasaS said:

If that were so, Russia wouldn't have invaded.

 

And why would they be silent about NATO involvement, their main challenge remains how to frame this war. With NATO in Ukraine, it would be much easier to go from a "special military operation" agains the Nazis to an all-out defensive war against NATO, with widespread mobilization.

Remember, Russia thought this would be a 3-day operation where the shock value would prevail and put NATO on the back foot.

 

Their military ineptitude and Ukraine’s heroic efforts (supported by the US and UK’s training and intelligence support together with military aid) stymied that idea. This is now a war they never banked on having to fight, hence their deplorable tactics against civilian ‘targets’.

 

They now find themselves on the back foot: Having to consolidate previous ‘gains’ in Crimea and Donbas. This is significant. And for all the talk of there being a second phase to this war where Russia fight a WW2 style action which might suit their agricultural army. I feel the weight of their holocoustal actions might just impel NATO to step up their support of the Ukrainian army. In fact, I’ll go as far as to say it already has and we’ll see an unprecedented escalation in the Ukranian’s response. And by that I mean the employment of the 21st century response Section alluded to.

Its shit or bust. And given the scope of sanctions  against Russia to date it would be folly to fail to back that up with the necessary military response needed to reach a conclusion. 

 

But out what do I know? All wars end with a diplomatic resolution. It’s just a case of manoeuvring the chess pieces in ones favour before reaching out the olive branch.  Or golden bridge to retreat in this case.

[Red Phoenix]

3 hours ago, cochyn said:

Cunts like the red brigade on here might baulk at this theory. Fuck em. Good people are dying horribly at the hands of a morally corrupt and indiscriminate aggressor and whilst we can stop this, we must.

 

Even a Ukrainian vow not to join NATO — a concession that Zelensky has floated publicly — could be a concern to some neighbors. That leads to an awkward reality: For some in NATO, it’s better for the Ukrainians to keep fighting, and dying, than to achieve a peace that comes too early or at too high a cost to Kyiv and the rest of Europe.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/04/05/ukraine-nato-russia-limits-peace/

 

I couldn't give a fuck if you think I'm a cunt for not supporting NATO, I don't support it and I don't support the US gov either that probably think Ukrainian lives are expendable for whatever shit world domination plans they have. That isn't being anti-west or a Putin apologist, it's simply opposing NATO and US gov militarism.

 

And if anyone has a view of the west that's dominated by governments, militaries and military alliances, then I think that's sad. There's a whole lot more to our lives and our history as western people than that.

 

I don't want to defend anything to do with Putin's invasion of Ukraine either so I'm not a Putin apologist no matter how much anyone says it. People can keep saying it over and over again but it's an empty meaningless insult unless the person it's aimed at is actually supporting or defending the invasion in some way. I never wanted them to invade, I don't want Putin to stay in power and would prefer if he stepped down or was voted out, and I don't want to see Russian troops in Ukraine. How many times do I have to say the same thing?

 

For me it's not "better for Ukrainians to keep fighting, and dying", than to achieve peace. I think that is fucking deranged because it assumes that peace can't work without even checking to see what happens. And that's something I have no interest in.

[TheHowieLama]

Peace cannot work unless both sides are willing to commit to it. We know for sure one side isn't at this point. We also know that only one countries soldiers are standing in another country. Otherwise you wouldn't need to worry about peace and could go back to playing video games yea?

 

Here is a hot one - who did you support in the first invasion, ermmmm "coup'?

 

 

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Peace cannot work unless both sides are willing to commit to it. We know for sure one side isn't at this point. We also know that only one countries soldiers are standing in another country. Otherwise you wouldn't need to worry about peace and could go back to playing video games yea?

 

Here is a hot one - who did you support in the first invasion, ermmmm "coup'?

 

We don't know for sure at all if some type of deal could be made shortly if both sides were willing to work towards one. And that deal would clearly have to involve Russian troops leaving the country. If that doesn't happen then it's not likely to get anywhere but to assume that it's not going to work without even putting the effort in isn't working toward peace I don't think.

 

As for who I supported in 2014, I had a look for a while and found this in the Kiev Kick Offs thread :

 

Quote

Crimea used to be part of Russia, so did Ukraine if they attack there, and it's actually Neo-Nazi groups that are on the opposite side to Putin. Simply because of that I have to partly agree with him.

 

We should never, ever be supporting fascists, but we've helped them partly take control in the Ukraine. I think it's a fucking disgrace, especially when you think of the millions of lives that were lost because of the Nazis in the past. It's the idiots controlling the US and EU that have started all of this. Crimea would still be in the Ukraine if those manipulators in the US and EU had left the country the fuck alone.

 

 

https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.php?/forums/topic/104890-kiev-kick-offs/&page=22&tab=comments#comment-3716229

 

So yep, that's me being a Putin apologist eight years ago, and in response to the coup that involved Nazis. It's not what I think now or what I've been like in this thread and that was back when Nazis were actually a concern and not normalized like they are now.

[TheHowieLama]

28 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

We don't know for sure at all if some type of deal could be made shortly if both sides were willing to work towards one. And that deal would clearly have to involve Russian troops leaving the country. If that doesn't happen then it's not likely to get anywhere but to assume that it's not going to work without even putting the effort in isn't working toward peace I don't think.

 

As for who I supported in 2014, I had a look for a while and found this in the Kiev Kick Offs thread :

 

 

 

https://www.liverpoolway.co.uk/index.php?/forums/topic/104890-kiev-kick-offs/&page=22&tab=comments#comment-3716229

 

So yep, that's me being a Putin apologist eight years ago, and in response to the coup that involved Nazis. It's not what I think now or what I've been like in this thread and that was back when Nazis were actually a concern and not normalized like they are now.

OK - a couple of things to think about. 

 

It is like 4am where you are innit? Get some sleep, wake up tomorrow have something to eat and go outside for awhile.

 

Also - I didn't remember you contributing recently to the Israel thread so took a quick look. A couple years back you seemed to support Palestinian resistance there which, as a pacifist seems somewhat at odds with your take on Ukraine's efforts to do the same. After years of going on about hypocrisy that is difficult to understand. 

So it's Ukranian Nazis within Ukraine that have you worked up? Cuz you seemed to be fixated on that previously as well. That and of course the States involvement. Which happen to be on either side of these two conflicts.

 

As an aside did you use to call him Uncle Barack?

[Red Phoenix]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

OK - a couple of things to think about. 

 

It is like 4am where you are innit? Get some sleep, wake up tomorrow have something to eat and go outside for awhile.

 

Also - I didn't remember you contributing recently to the Israel thread so took a quick look. A couple years back you seemed to support Palestinian resistance there which, as a pacifist seems somewhat at odds with your take on Ukraine's efforts to do the same. After years of going on about hypocrisy that is difficult to understand. 

So it's Ukranian Nazis within Ukraine that have you worked up? Cuz you seemed to be fixated on that previously as well. That and of course the States involvement. Which happen to be on either side of these two conflicts.

 

As an aside did you use to call him Uncle Barack?

 

I can't remember calling him Uncle Barack and yeah it's 6am here but my sleeping hours are all over the place anyway.

 

I'm not getting involved in arguing about Palestine here either, which is different to Ukraine in many ways. Palestinians aren't having tons of weapons shipped in from all over NATO countries, Israel hasn't been sanctioned and had loads of western corps leaving the country in disgust, the media haven't been supporting Palestinians preparing molotovs for the Israelis and it doesn't look like NATO leaders give a fuck about them.

 

If they were white Europeans though, yeah maybe that's a whole other level of hypocrisy that's not best for this thread.

 

It was interesting going back to that 2014 thread too. I'm sure Rico and Captain Howdy can enjoy calling me a Putin apologist for an eight year old comment that I went back to the thread for and posted here myself (I quoted Putin too on the same page if it helps incriminate me further), but the reality of an actual invasion wasn't something many of us really imagined I don't think. I'd only been following political stuff with much interest for two years at that point too and the whole Crimea thing wasn't the type of invasion we've seen recently along with all of the bombing and everything else. The actual coup that had taken place with the fascists, Nazis and US backing wasn't so easy to avoid either seeing as it'd recently happened and reports of it were easier to find.

 

Anyway I'm not opposing Ukrainians defending themselves from a Russian invasion and I want Russian troops out of the country. I'd prefer Putin out of power like I said with him stepping down or being voted out and I don't want Donbas ending up as more Russian territory. Also though I don't support constant calls for more NATO involvement, escalating things and others deciding that Ukrainian lives are expendable as they obsess over weapons shipments whilst also avoiding focusing on trying to sort some type of ceasefire or talks out at the same time.

[Rico1304]

Being an early adopter of Putin propaganda isn’t as impressive as you think.