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Liverpool 1 Man City 4 (Feb 7 2021)


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1 hour ago, Red Shift said:

Well, you mean last summer. I’d say the investment was good, but it didn’t include any defenders. They were probably guilty of not covering for Matip when they bought Thiago and Jota, as well as the GK.

No, not last summer, the summer before. Four transfer windows since becoming European Champions.

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I dont really get how top players lose confidence. I can understand playing it safe when you have 50,000 fans screaming at you when things are going wrong but, we're playing in empty stadiums bay a few hundred observers.

 

Players like Trent, Gini, Curtis, Alli and a few others seem intent on just patting the ball back to the player who has just given it to them, sometimes even when they've asked for the ball. Baffling.

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Excellent report @dave u - captured the mood perfectly.   I'm not one to panic, but I would be concerned that a number of players may be on the other side of their peak now, and whether future of this side brings only diminishing returns. It will be interesting to see what happens when we have Fabinho and Henderson back in midfield.  I expect to see Thiago's more obvious contributions improve significantly as he won't be doing three jobs in midfield.  He's really the only hope we have in bringing change to the way we attack.  Sadly, I don't expect Firmino to ever get back to anything resembling an important player for us, and if we don't see more creative running play from our midfield, then we've got huge problems.

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Our success to investment ratio is totally out of balance. FSG have made a fortune and invested very little back into the club. Klopp shouldn't have had to ask to buy players in a buyers market, it should have been offered as payback for all the success he has given them. VVD getting injured is exactly what you have reserve cash for and then a Black Swan event like Covid provides all sorts of opportunities to consolidate your position at the top of the pile. Wall Street has been on fire since March 2020 and there's no way they didn't take advantage of that. Giving nothing back to the club is not forgivable. With all the fans away why not start the build for the next part of the stadium? I'm not impressed with the lack of action and refusal to invest and provide support for the manager when he needed it most. 

 

 

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Feels like I'm the odd man out here, I think that once we get our regular CBs back (or some of subsequent quality/pace), most of our troubles will be solved. What we lack now is:

- pace at the back (Vvd, Gomez and to a lesser extent Matip)

- aerial dominance (Vvd, Matip and to a lesser extent Gomez)

- balls/guts to throw more people into the box (which stems from the midfielders not daring to expose our slow CBs)

- progressive passing (which stems from fear of losing the ball and exposing our CBs)

 

We've basically retreated 3 years (to before Vvd), and instead of playing "red arrow" football and letting the opposition run at us, we've reduced our risk-taking in the middle of the park. I've discussed at length the value of our CBs having pace when we employ our high line and suffocating press. It just doesn't work as well (or at all) when we have the slowest CBs in the league. It was what really transformed us when Vvd arrived, as both the balls in behind and the balls launched in the air were just harmless.

 

Those old enough will remember the same thing happening to the Mancs once Ferdinand's pace went. Having been able to swarm the opposition box for nearly a decade, they suddenly had to take fewer risks offensively, and subsequently became a more boring, rigid version of themselves. 

 

I still think THIS is by far the best team in the league:

 

-------------------Allison------------------------

Trent----Gomez/Matip---Vvd----Robertson

-----------------Fabinho------------------------

---Henderson----------Thiago/Wijnaldum----

----Salah-----------Firmino------------Mane----

 

I also want to throw in a word about Firmino, who seems to be the one taking the most of the criticism this season (and last). He's had a few games this season where his touch has let him down more than previous seasons. Problem for him is that when he comes deep these days (which he has always has done to create opposite movements and space for Salah/Mane), it happens 20 yards further from goal than before. This is a consequence of our fear of letting runners in behind/being pushed further from goal. There's almost never a midfielder running in behind him anymore either (a feature of our two previous seasons). This leads to Firmino becoming less effective himself, and his off the ball work being ignored. We've become so much more static and risk-averse after Gomez broke down, it's like watching a different team. 

 

 

In my mind there's two ways out of this current conundrum (until Gomez/Vvd/Matip are back):

 

We play the two new CB's and move Hendo/Fab back in their best positions, hoping that Kabak/Davies hit the ground running (unlikely)

We play Henderson and one of Kabak/Davies, moving Fab into midfield, hoping his defensive powers will shield the defence sufficiently for us to take some more risks. Henderson is not super quick, but MUCH faster than Fab. None of them are good in the air, so hopefully Kabak/Davies will be able to do that part of the job....

 

While I love Thiago and think he will become great for us once our CB's are back, he only plays in the second scenario. We need Wijnaldum's strength and ability to break up attacks until our defenders are back up to speed (literally).

 

I really, really hope our supporters don't jump on the Sky generation bandwagon, and instead show a bit of patience (the owners deserve their fair share of criticism, granted) towards the players and Klopp. They've earned our trust, and even if people are even angrier than normal during this hopeless global situation, they should be given a bit of time to get their confidence back, not be met by rage and criticism!

 

My biggest fear is Klopp picking up on this, and thinking what an ungrateful bunch we are, leaving us prematurely in the hands of someone not up to it (Lijnders/Gerrard).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, lebron said:

Feels like I'm the odd man out here, I think that once we get our regular CBs back (or some of subsequent quality/pace), most of our troubles will be solved. What we lack now is:

- pace at the back (Vvd, Gomez and to a lesser extent Matip)

- aerial dominance (Vvd, Matip and to a lesser extent Gomez)

- balls/guts to throw more people into the box (which stems from the midfielders not daring to expose our slow CBs)

- progressive passing (which stems from fear of losing the ball and exposing our CBs)

 

We've basically retreated 3 years (to before Vvd), and instead of playing "red arrow" football and letting the opposition run at us, we've reduced our risk-taking in the middle of the park. I've discussed at length the value of our CBs having pace when we employ our high line and suffocating press. It just doesn't work as well (or at all) when we have the slowest CBs in the league. It was what really transformed us when Vvd arrived, as both the balls in behind and the balls launched in the air were just harmless.

 

Those old enough will remember the same thing happening to the Mancs once Ferdinand's pace went. Having been able to swarm the opposition box for nearly a decade, they suddenly had to take fewer risks offensively, and subsequently became a more boring, rigid version of themselves. 

 

I still think THIS is by far the best team in the league:

 

-------------------Allison------------------------

Trent----Gomez/Matip---Vvd----Robertson

-----------------Fabinho------------------------

---Henderson----------Thiago/Wijnaldum----

----Salah-----------Firmino------------Mane----

 

I also want to throw in a word about Firmino, who seems to be the one taking the most of the criticism this season (and last). He's had a few games this season where his touch has let him down more than previous seasons. Problem for him is that when he comes deep these days (which he has always has done to create opposite movements and space for Salah/Mane), it happens 20 yards further from goal than before. This is a consequence of our fear of letting runners in behind/being pushed further from goal. There's almost never a midfielder running in behind him anymore either (a feature of our two previous seasons). This leads to Firmino becoming less effective himself, and his off the ball work being ignored. We've become so much more static and risk-averse after Gomez broke down, it's like watching a different team. 

 

 

In my mind there's two ways out of this current conundrum (until Gomez/Vvd/Matip are back):

 

We play the two new CB's and move Hendo/Fab back in their best positions, hoping that Kabak/Davies hit the ground running (unlikely)

We play Henderson and one of Kabak/Davies, moving Fab into midfield, hoping his defensive powers will shield the defence sufficiently for us to take some more risks. Henderson is not super quick, but MUCH faster than Fab. None of them are good in the air, so hopefully Kabak/Davies will be able to do that part of the job....

 

While I love Thiago and think he will become great for us once our CB's are back, he only plays in the second scenario. We need Wijnaldum's strength and ability to break up attacks until our defenders are back up to speed (literally).

 

I really, really hope our supporters don't jump on the Sky generation bandwagon, and instead show a bit of patience (the owners deserve their fair share of criticism, granted) towards the players and Klopp. They've earned our trust, and even if people are even angrier than normal during this hopeless global situation, they should be given a bit of time to get their confidence back, not be met by rage and criticism!

 

My biggest fear is Klopp picking up on this, and thinking what an ungrateful bunch we are, leaving us prematurely in the hands of someone not up to it (Lijnders/Gerrard).

 

 

Some good points but I think it papers over the cracks that were there after the title was won. Some go as far back as Watford and that all being Degsy's fault but, van Dijk was equally culpable that night. Yes, Virgil is great but he's not untouchable.

 

Compared to our form before the title was won, we were not as good as before. We did enough and Ive no real complaints about that.

 

In the main, I think the defence has coped with Virgil, Joe and to a lesser extent, Joel's absence. Many seem to forget Virgil played in the 7-2 thrashing at Villa and was the captain. Remember all those shouting for Hendo to be stripped of it and Virgil made captain?

 

To me, our problems are up front with Mo, Sadio and Bobby. While the number of chances created may have dipped, the conversion rate has plummeted. Only Mo is scoring. Sadio seems to be away somewhere else in his head. Bobby, I dont know what's happened there.

 

You're right about Jurgen picking up vibes. He's already mentioned the fans need to stay behind the team. As for this talk of Ljinders being good enough to take over as manager, no, just no.

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Spot on about Allison. Seeing as he's famously religious and loves a double point to the skies, I'd give him a period of self-reflection of about 3 weeks or 4 games. 

 

It's not going to cost us anything by having Kelleher in there, but we may also actually greatly benefit from him getting real games notched on the bedpost. 

 

I suspect, in fairness to Allison, that he was rushed back after his illness, as illnesses can affect your whole mind and body in a way that a niggle or a strain are isolated, and that's what it looked like to me. 

 

On top of all that, this goes higher than Klopp; new blood is required at this level.

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