Counter Press vs Control Possession

[Jordy Brouwer]

We used to be a lethal counter press and counter attacking team and Klopp had a lot of success with that style and we were great to watch.

 

Then teams learned how to deal with counter press better and it was taking a physical toll on our players so he switched to a less fierce press and a more control possession style where we relied less on counter pressing situations and patiently waited for openings to appear. While this wasn't as good to watch it still worked very effectively and our possession of grit and leadership in midfield meant that even if we didn't score quite as often we still ruthlessly got the wins. We still kept some elements of the counter press style - most notably the very high defensive line designed to help us win the ball back quickly. 

 

What worries me now is that, mainly due to injuries we are starting to become a weird and unfortunate hybrid of counter press and control possession styles and in a way that emphasises the weakness of both styles without the advantages. We have the very high line of a counter press system but we don't press with anything like the intensity that we used to meaning that we don't create counter pressing attacking opportunities. Because we have the very high line though it makes our players rightly scared of losing the ball in anything other than the safest positions. This means they never run at a man (other than Sadio and occasionally Robbo), rarely play a quick and early ball in transition and make fewer overlapping runs in wide positions out of fear of being caught out. Because we are not pressing with super intensity means that high line is vulnerable if we lose the ball. 

 

This nullifies any advantage of control possession football because even a patient style of play needs risk taking. This accounts for the toothless yet safe attacking option of chipping balls into the box; a safe area to lose the ball (although I still maintain that having a shot would be a better option). 

 

The problem is that we are becoming neither "fish nor fowl"; neither a counter press team nor an effective control possession team but an award mash of the two styles. It mostly driven by an historic injury crisis but I can't help wondering if we wouldn't be better trying to pick a single style. If we want to emphasise counter press than absolutely play with the high line - in fact push it up even higher and press the ever loving shit out of them. Make them scared to win the ball back and create counter pressing attacking situation after situation which as we know can be some of the deadliest attacking situations there are.

 

OR if control possession is out game, push the defensive line back 5 - 10 yards so that our attacking players can try a few creative things without everyone having a heart attack when we lose the ball on account of the acres of space left in behind and the fact that due to a less intense press we aren't winning the ball back in the next two seconds. 

 

One or the other is my view for what its worth (nothing). 

 

Just wanted to get those thoughts down. 

 

 

[dockers_strike]

I find it massively helps teams when refs send off one or two players from the same side, preferably in the first 2 minutes. Or, teams get given nonsense pens deep in added time when 2 players boots make contact at the same time. or, an oppo keeper can wipe out one of your key players for a season never mind a game and refs forget to wave a red card about. Or a player's pubes are in an offside position.

 

Of course Im just joshing except Im not. All those incidents except the first have cost us points this season. I dont go with the conspiracy theories but I do think decisions have massively impacted us. We get pissed off with them, I can only guess how the players see them.

 

Oppos will always adapt to how a team players. It's why a player can be shit hot in his first season then not so shit hot the next as the coaches have figured how to play him.

 

I honestly think the boys have given a tremendous amount of effort especially in the last 3 years. This is probably the first season under Jurgen we havent made progress. But when you're at the top, kicking on or maintaining those levels are very, very hard.

 

I also think the fact that gimp down the east lancs and refs assisting the mancs climb up the table is grinding more than a few people's gears.

[Jordy Brouwer]

2 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

I find it massively helps teams when refs send off one or two players from the same side, preferably in the first 2 minutes. Or, teams get given nonsense pens deep in added time when 2 players boots make contact at the same time. or, an oppo keeper can wipe out one of your key players for a season never mind a game and refs forget to wave a red card about. Or a player's pubes are in an offside position.

 

Of course Im just joshing except Im not. All those incidents except the first have cost us points this season. I dont go with the conspiracy theories but I do think decisions have massively impacted us. We get pissed off with them, I can only guess how the players see them.

 

Oppos will always adapt to how a team players. It's why a player can be shit hot in his first season then not so shit hot the next as the coaches have figured how to play him.

 

I honestly think the boys have given a tremendous amount of effort especially in the last 3 years. This is probably the first season under Jurgen we havent made progress. But when you're at the top, kicking on or maintaining those levels are very, very hard.

 

I also think the fact that gimp down the east lancs and refs assisting the mancs climb up the table is grinding more than a few people's gears.

 

Yep injuries, decisions and tight owners have played their part along with a pandemic. A cosmic convergence of calamities to put some alliteration on it. 

 

I still think talking about tactics is OK though especially on a football forum. Kills the time if nothing else. 

 

Last season we got away with being a hybrid counter press/ control possession side because Hendo and Fab were that good at protecting our attacks and Virg is Virg. It meant that we could have our cake an eat it; a high line AND a patient style that still involved some risk taking in the final third. We had far more risk taking in the final third; running at men, fast one touch play and overloads out wide. We could do that even with the high line because Hendo, Fab and Virg had us covered. 

 

We can't have our cake and eat it now was my point. We are starting to be faced with a choice of a counter pressing system OR the control possession style.  The way things are working now is ... just shit. 

 

 

[3 Stacks]

I'm more inclined to think this is more of an intensity problem. Counter pressing and possession styles are pretty synonymous. If you look at sides like Leipzig, Dortmund, Bayern and Leeds, who share our proclivity to want to win the ball high up the pitch, they are all also in the top 20 in the world in possession of the ball. Having lots of possession doesn't have to mean less pressing.

 

The injuries and complacency have robbed us of intensity, tempo and physicality. Hence, we're winning less balls in midfield to trigger quick attacks and possession isn't picked up as high up the pitch, often meaning it starts far from goal and it's slow and sterile. And having centre backs who aren't centre backs or aren't comfortable playing high up the pitch is a big part of that as well, but it just seems team-wide now. Like a general lack of energy. So, I wouldn't personally see this is a tactical problem, more of a "we need our mojo and some injured players back" problem. I also think, we could do with some squad turnover.

 

What I would see as questionable is our squad structure, the fact we have a million midfielders, few centre backs, reliable full backs beyond Trent and Robbo and maybe not a traditional striker. But then, we'd have to change our patterns of play if we bought a traditional striker, so there would be a discussion to be had there as well.

 

[dockers_strike]

18 minutes ago, Jordy Brouwer said:

 

Yep injuries, decisions and tight owners have played their part along with a pandemic. A cosmic convergence of calamities to put some alliteration on it. 

 

I still think talking about tactics is OK though especially on a football forum. Kills the time if nothing else. 

 

Last season we got away with being a hybrid counter press/ control possession side because Hendo and Fab were that good at protecting our attacks and Virg is Virg. It meant that we could have our cake an eat it; a high line AND a patient style that still involved some risk taking in the final third. We had far more risk taking in the final third; running at men, fast one touch play and overloads out wide. We could do that even with the high line because Hendo, Fab and Virg had us covered. 

 

We can't have our cake and eat it now was my point. We are starting to be faced with a choice of a counter pressing system OR the control possession style.  The way things are working now is ... just shit. 

 

 

Yeah all fair points. My take is we're not conceeding lots of goals despite losing all our first choice centre backs and cover. The issue is not scoring enough down the other end.

 

Most of that onus falls on the front 3 of Mo, Sadio and Bobby. But as we all know, it's been diminishing returns from them since the 'glorious' first season. True, they were never going maintain those returns. The biggest drop off in goals is sadly Bobby.

 

Jota came in and started with a bang. Even so, in my humble opinion, he was never going to keep hitting goals as he was but, I think he would still have outscored Bobby.

 

I dont think you can depend solely on one tactic to win games. Controlled possession is great. After all, if the oppos cant get the ball, they cannot score (unless you score an oggie!). But you have to have an end product to the possession because as we all know, on it's own, it doesnt win games.

 

Counter press is also great because at the very least, it forces oppos into losing possession. It needs a combination of both. Simplistic, I know but I cant really offer any other explanation.

[Brownie]

I think there’s loads of over-analysis going on, to be honest. We’re controlling games in terms of possession, we’re winning the ball back well and then getting to the edge of the opponents box at will but then everything is breaking down.

 

It’s as simple as that for me.

[Jordy Brouwer]

1 minute ago, Brownie said:

I think there’s loads of over-analysis going on, to be honest. We’re controlling games in terms of possession, we’re winning the ball back well and then getting to the edge of the opponents box at will but then everything is breaking down.

 

It’s as simple as that for me.

I think that might be a bit of under-analysis. Why is it all breaking down on the edge of the opposition box? I had my own stab at answering that, right or wrong. 

[3 Stacks]

7 minutes ago, dockers_strike said:

Yeah all fair points. My take is we're not conceeding lots of goals despite losing all our first choice centre backs and cover. The issue is not scoring enough down the other end.

 

Most of that onus falls on the front 3 of Mo, Sadio and Bobby. But as we all know, it's been diminishing returns from them since the 'glorious' first season. True, they were never going maintain those returns. The biggest drop off in goals is sadly Bobby.

 

Jota came in and started with a bang. Even so, in my humble opinion, he was never going to keep hitting goals as he was but, I think he would still have outscored Bobby.

 

I dont think you can depend solely on one tactic to win games. Controlled possession is great. After all, if the oppos cant get the ball, they cannot score (unless you score an oggie!). But you have to have an end product to the possession because as we all know, on it's own, it doesnt win games.

 

Counter press is also great because at the very least, it forces oppos into losing possession. It needs a combination of both. Simplistic, I know but I cant really offer any other explanation.

The whole thing is connected. The reason we're not conceding many goals isn't because the likes of Henderson and Phillips are great defenders, it's because there's a shit load of compensating being done across the team so we're not open and exposing them. And then, that's hurting us in attack, among other things in most games.

[Brownie]

16 minutes ago, Jordy Brouwer said:

I think that might be a bit of under-analysis. Why is it all breaking down on the edge of the opposition box? I had my own stab at answering that, right or wrong. 

Forwards have been massively inconsistent. I don’t see how we can come up with answers to explain Mo not being able to control a pass or just running into people and Bobby constantly giving the ball away.

 

Probably need a degree in psychology to even offer a view. 

[Brownie]

15 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

The whole thing is connected. The reason we're not conceding many goals isn't because the likes of Henderson and Phillips are great defenders, it's because there's a shit load of compensating being done across the team so we're not open and exposing them. And then, that's hurting us in attack, among other things in most games.

I don’t see that at all. We’re playing as high as we usually do and we are expecting our defenders to be able to win their 1v1 duels.

 

And they’re generally doing that.

 

I haven’t seen anything offered as evidence that we have changed the way we’re playing.

[Bjornebye]

Opposition goalies need to stop shouting and putting us off. The shouty bastards. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

Stop the side to side shit in the final third of the pitch do it much further back. Teams don't just sit in the box waiting if they did we wouldn't be getting beat. We either open up the pitch or we will continue passing the ball round tight spaces wondering how the fuck are we going to score. One shot on target against some really shit sides. I dont think Brighton are a shit side but we played them exactly how they would of wanted. Make some room, run at some players for once.  I dont know what the solution is but I know its not keep doing what we're doing.

 

[TheHowieLama]

1 minute ago, Brownie said:

Forwards have been massively inconsistent. I don’t see how we can come up with answers to explain Mo not being able to control a pass or just running into people and Bobby constantly giving the ball away.

 

Probably need a degree in psychology to even offer a view. 

All 3 of the forwards excel when running towards goal - Salah just had an incredible touch/finish for his last gola. Bobby is very good in transition build up. They just stink with their back to goal - Mo isn't strong enough most of the time and really can only go one way. Firmino resorts to flicks/tricks that used to sometimes work when there was more space in the box but now it is packed. He could look to lay it off for a shot but we don't have any midfielders who are coming forward looking to have a crack. So it gets cycled around. Again.

[Section_31]

Sounds complicated to me, I can't profess to understand what Klopp and the coaches do or how things have changed, I just think the main issues are a combination of loss of form and fitness, bad luck plus also bad vibes. We were a team riding on a crest of a wave of buzz, excitement and success and now it's like the fates opened a plughole and it's all drained away. Much of our intensity I feel fed off the fans, the atmosphere and the expectancy and now that's gone, through no fault of our own. 

 

If we were set to play the Champions League final tomorrow against Barcelona, can you imagine how utterly underwhelming it'd be? No fans, late covid test for Messi. It's bollocks. 

 

Maybe the intensity we've been playing with for three years has taken its toll too, I don't know. To keep that up you have to be very lucky or have the money to build a good bench, which is something we've never had. It's like being a boxer that's got to put their opponent away in the first five rounds or they'll lose because they don't have the stamina, that's basically us and city when it comes to long term success, I fear. 

[3 Stacks]

20 minutes ago, Brownie said:

I don’t see that at all. We’re playing as high as we usually do and we are expecting our defenders to be able to win their 1v1 duels.

 

And they’re generally doing that.

 

I haven’t seen anything offered as evidence that we have changed the way we’re playing.

Admittedly, it's hard to find concrete proof of how high or not high of a line we're playing game in game out after the fact, but it's fanciful to think we're leaving Phillips exposed the same way we'd leave van Dijk exposed.

[Brownie]

2 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Admittedly, it's hard to find concrete proof of how high or not high of a line we're playing game in game out after the fact, but it's fanciful to think we're leaving Phillips exposed the same way we'd leave van Dijk exposed.

If it's fanciful, offer the evidence that disputes it then? Philips has done loads of 1v1 one defending in the games he's played, I bet someone could make a video compilation of it pretty easily enough.

 

One of the big things our centre backs seem to try and do is to win the ball when the opponent has their back to goal. If you do that, then you prevent a situation where they are running at you and you're having to back-pedal and worry about the space behind. When Rhys Williams and Philips have had their wobbles, it's been exactly that scenario.

 

What Philips has done really well is to prevent it from getting to that point by dealing with it earlier. The one time I can remember him not doing that is when Callum Wilson had him 1v1 and skinned him.

 

In theory you would expect that our approach would alter as we have to replace players but the crazy thing is that it hasn't, at least not to the naked, untrained eye.

[3 Stacks]

7 minutes ago, Brownie said:

If it's fanciful, offer the evidence that disputes it then? Philips has done loads of 1v1 one defending in the games he's played, I bet someone could make a video compilation of it pretty easily enough.

 

One of the big things our centre backs seem to try and do is to win the ball when the opponent has their back to goal. If you do that, then you prevent a situation where they are running at you and you're having to back-pedal and worry about the space behind. When Rhys Williams and Philips have had their wobbles, it's been exactly that scenario.

 

What Philips has done really well is to prevent it from getting to that point by dealing with it earlier. The one time I can remember him not doing that is when Callum Wilson had him 1v1 and skinned him.

 

In theory you would expect that our approach would alter as we have to replace players but the crazy thing is that it hasn't, at least not to the naked, untrained eye.

Well, I can't because I don't really know what that kind of evidence looks like. I'm just saying that logically we're likely compensating for Phillips in some way. What that is, I don't know. We're in the same boat, I have no evidence but you don't have any either.

 

What Phillips has done well is put his body on big strikers who like to engage in that sort of duel. The likes of Haller and Antonio. He's great in the air and can harass these kinds of strikers with strength and aggressiveness. So, if he can put his body on a striker at midfield, then yes, that helps us and it has helped us.

[Wicket]

I don’t know enough or watch enough footy other than us to suggest what tactical tweaks we need, but my very basic view is that about 12 months back we started encountering a hell of a lot of teams that are willing to let us have the ball 65% of the time and stay back and defend deep, and by and large it’s worked. Until recently it hadn’t resulted in many losses, but they are now starting to creep in we still look pretty clueless at breaking teams down. 

 

i can’t underplay the effect of the injuries as they would have crippled anyone else in this league, but that applies to this season. The warning signs against this style of play were there before this season and we seem to have less answers to it than ever. 

[Brownie]

37 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Well, I can't because I don't really know what that kind of evidence looks like. I'm just saying that logically we're likely compensating for Phillips in some way. What that is, I don't know. We're in the same boat, I have no evidence but you don't have any either.

 

What Phillips has done well is put his body on big strikers who like to engage in that sort of duel. The likes of Haller and Antonio. He's great in the air and can harass these kinds of strikers with strength and aggressiveness. So, if he can put his body on a striker at midfield, then yes, that helps us and it has helped us.

That’s generally what we do as a team though, be aggressive get the ball back early, the midfield does it and so do the CB’s. I have seen no change in how we play at all. I don’t feel I need to provide evidence for that as it’s not a big claim at all.

 

If I could be arsed I’d go and put together a clip of Philips winning loads of 1v1 duels but I really can’t be bothered tbh.

 

The point here is that the results we’ve had have dried up because the front players have stopped producing. It’s not because we’re deeper, or midfielders are being more cautious to protect the defence, it’s simply a case of performance levels dropping within the forward players.

[3 Stacks]

8 minutes ago, Brownie said:

That’s generally what we do as a team though, be aggressive get the ball back early, the midfield does it and so do the CB’s. I have seen no change in how we play at all. I don’t feel I need to provide evidence for that as it’s not a big claim at all.

 

If I could be arsed I’d go and put together a clip of Philips winning loads of 1v1 duels but I really can’t be bothered tbh.

 

The point here is that the results we’ve had have dried up because the front players have stopped producing. It’s not because we’re deeper, or midfielders are being more cautious to protect the defence, it’s simply a case of performance levels dropping within the forward players.

When you're consistently producing similar performances against certain types of teams with the same kind of "12 shots, 2 on target" outcome, it's likely something a little more complex than "the front players are playing bad". I'll leave it at that too.

[Elite]

It's a combination of things as outlined in this thread, so it's not a case of a simple fix. Sadly we are going to be like this most of the season, we might just do enough to scrape 4th but I'm not convinced.

 

A fit squad and fans back in the stadium will solve the majority of our problems next season.

[TheHowieLama]

He is on massive wages but a player like Cavani would have been a great addition. Attacks every cross, covers both posts - he would score a shedload with TAA and Robbo.

[Paulie Dangerously]

TL;DR we're shit

[No2]

We look like a team who was left standing at the altar all alone on our wedding day. Our big day stripped from us by a virus. We put on a brave face for as long as we could but now we just accept we are in a sad place. 

 

If the players are feeling half as sorry for themselves as I am then its no wonder they all look shit. I can't be angry or disappointed with them, they gave their heart and soul for the cause. It will get better again but not for awhile.

[Liverpool lad]

Fucking hell

 

I thought I had logged on to the Athletic