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manwiththestick

Summer 2021 transfer thread.

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Just now, Moo said:

Probably the same with us and Jones/Keita, but I think that's human nature. Still, McTominay does a decent job for them and they miss him when he's out, I believe he'd be a better option for us starting in midfield than any of our back ups with the exception of Elliott who looks a real talent and needs minutes.

He can't keep the ball. He wouldn't be anywhere near our squad. That's not saying he isn't a good player. He suits them but they need to improve on him if they want to challenge for the big 2 trophies. 

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4 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

So you're saying with all the knowledge and data analytics at our disposal, the only 2 names he could pull out of a hat were balotelli and etoo? It was clear Rodgers didn't want them. I'm sorry, we might have been desperate, but no way should they be the names on the block at that time. 

 

My point is there is no body of work to show if Edwards can do the job without klopp. There is plenty to suggest the reverse. Edwards might have learnt. He may have tuned his data modelling. Or he might just be shit who knows how to present a spreadsheet to the board. 

Every club uses data. The problem was that Rodgers and Edwards/the others didn't get along, plus the fact we had no clout in the market. We wanted to buy Sanchez that summer which would have been great. We wanted to buy the likes of Mkhitaryan, Willian and Diego Costa, also good targets. Simply, no one wanted to join. The secondary targets were indeed bad, the ones you mentioned, but again our standing wasn't very good and good players often didn't want to join. That's not really recruitment's fault. 

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2 minutes ago, Razoray said:

He can't keep the ball. He wouldn't be anywhere near our squad. That's not saying he isn't a good player. He suits them but they need to improve on him if they want to challenge for the big 2 trophies. 

Of course they do.  I'm arguing in favour of McTominay in particular to emphasise how poor our back ups are rather than how good he is.

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1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

Every club uses data. The problem was that Rodgers and Edwards/the others didn't get along, plus the fact we had no clout in the market. We wanted to buy Sanchez that summer which would have been great. We wanted to buy the likes of Mkhitaryan, Willian and Diego Costa, also good targets. Simply, no one wanted to join. The secondary targets were indeed bad, the ones you mentioned, but again our standing wasn't very good and good players often didn't want to join. That's not really recruitment's fault. 

I wonder why no one wanted to join. The spreadsheet said "your worth is 25p per week" or something or we'd offer half the fee the selling club wanted and got elsewhere. We under shot financially on all of those players which is why we didn't get them. 

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8 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

With CL money, who knows, we might have bought both. But it doesn't matter. Klopp has continually throughout his career took players to other levels h he knows the players he can get.more from. Sometimes they managed it without him. But in many, many cases they've not. 

Klopp already rejected Mane once before…and Peter Moore said after he left that Klopp didn’t want Salah, and had to be convinced to take him by our analytics team. I adore Klopp, but he’s also not flawless with regards to his player management. He never got the best out of Aubameyang, Immobile or Perisic for example. 

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7 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Klopp already rejected Mane once before…and Peter Moore said after he left that Klopp didn’t want Salah, and had to be convinced to take him by our analytics team. I adore Klopp, but he’s also not flawless with regards to his player management. He never got the best out of Aubameyang, Immobile or Perisic for example. 

Klopp himself says he needed to be convinced about Salah. That is the point - the spreadsheet simply saying yes wasn't enough - klopp doesn't scout, they do and he made them backup their analytics. He made the scouting team prove he was the right guy. And as for mane, we've all heard that story too.... It had nothing to do with football, he thought mane was a prick in a 1 hour meeting. He got it wrong, but for a fella who relies on character, he was dead right to say no if he thought he was a prick. 

 

As for he didn't get the best out of aubamayang. He might have improved after klopp, but he was a signing for about 20p, a complete fucking no mark. Immobile is fucking shite, klopp or no klopp. You're talking about the 3 of them like they're world beaters. 

 

As I said before, the only evidence we have on either of them is what they both did without each other. Klopp has done it all before elsewhere. Edwards we have the work he did with Rodgers. If you want to believe Edwards is a genius, good on you. I've absolutely no faith we're in safe hands with him when klopp leaves. 

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17 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Klopp himself says he needed to be convinced about Salah. That is the point - the spreadsheet simply saying yes wasn't enough. He made the scouting team prove he was the right guy. And as for mane, we've all heard that story too.... It had nothing to do with football, he thought mane was a prick in a 1 hour meeting. He got it wrong, but for a fella who relies on character, he was dead right to say no if he thought he was a prick. 

 

As for he didn't get the best out of aubamayang. He might have improved after klopp, but he was a signing for about 20p, a complete fucking no mark. Immobile is fucking shite, klopp or no klopp. You're talking about the 3 of them like they're world beaters. 

 

As I said before, the only evidence we have on either of them is what they both did without each other. Klopp has done it all before elsewhere. Edwards we have the work he did with Rodgers. If you want to believe Edwards is a genius, good on you. I've absolutely no faith we're in safe hands with him when klopp leaves. 

I don’t really care about Edwards, I don’t even know if it was him who identified Salah and Mane. But it definitely wasn’t Klopp. Klopp rejected Mane at Dortmund and wanted Brandt instead of Salah. He had to be convinced by the analytics team to get both of them. If you want think the reason for their success is only down to Klopp feel free, I’m not going to stop you. However if it was only up to him neither player would be at the club.

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29 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

I wonder why no one wanted to join. The spreadsheet said "your worth is 25p per week" or something or we'd offer half the fee the selling club wanted and got elsewhere. We under shot financially on all of those players which is why we didn't get them. 

Is that a fact?

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1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

Michael Edwards was the chap who took care of the Suarez money when he left. Wanting to replace him with balotteli, etoo and Lambert. He thought markovic was a footballer. Albie moreno too. Edwards has only shown his quality since klopp has run the rule over the incomings. I'm not saying klopp is discovering them, but I 100% think he rules plenty out where the spreadsheet says yes. Klopp has done it throughout his managerial career. 

Edwards was an equal part of a 5 man committee. He's now top dog.

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48 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

 

My point is there is no body of work to show if Edwards can do the job without klopp. There is plenty to suggest the reverse. Edwards might have learnt. He may have tuned his data modelling. Or he might just be shit who knows how to present a spreadsheet to the board. 

 

By that logic there is nothing to suggest Klopp could his job without a good DOF or whst ever we call Edwards as in both Klopps really successful he's had Edwards and Zorc doing much of the transfers,or at least giving him shortlists 

 

 

 

Now i see this has been brought up already 

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I'm not sure either Moreno or Luis Alberto were such bad signings. The latter we signed young and has gone on to have a very good career. Moreno wasn't great but far from terrible and people forget that Robbo didn't immediately displace him from the side.

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17 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I don’t really care about Edwards, I don’t even know if it was him who identified Salah and Mane. But it definitely wasn’t Klopp. Klopp rejected Mane at Dortmund and wanted Brandt instead of Salah. He had to be convinced by the analytics team to get both of them. If you want think the reason for their success is only down to Klopp feel free, I’m not going to stop you. However if it was only up to him neither player would be at the club.

The pont was being made earlier that we've nothing to worry about when klopp goes because he doesn't run the whole club like Wenger did and we've got Edwards so the upheaval mightn't be so bad and Edwards will be able to pick a new man. My point is there's fuck all to suggest Edwards has either the capability to work successfully with another manager or indeed select a new one. In fact quite the opposite, our only sample is what Edwards did with Rodgers and where klopp is concerned, FSG identified ancelotti and klopp, klopp sold himself better, so no big thumbs for Edwards there. 

 

5 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

 

By that logic there is nothing to suggest Klopp could his job without a good DOF or whst ever we call Edwards as in both Klopps really successful he's had Edwards and Zorc doing much of the transfers,or at least giving him shortlists 

 

 

 

Now i see this has been brought up already 

I have never said klopp can work without a dof. But who's suggesting he should? We're talking about klopps exit and the impact it will have on the club. 

 

11 minutes ago, m0e said:

Edwards was an equal part of a 5 man committee. He's now top dog.

He's not top dog. Klopp is. We don't sign any player unless klopp signs it off. If you mean he manages the quants and scouts, I agree. 

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1 minute ago, Barrington Womble said:

He's not top dog. Klopp is. We don't sign any player unless klopp signs it off. If you mean he manages the quants and scouts, I agree. 

Yeah, I meant outside of the playing side. I suppose technically, Gordon is the top dog.

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43 minutes ago, aRdja said:

 He never got the best out of Aubameyang, Immobile or Perisic for example. 

 

Good reasons for that

He has just lost Gotze and was trying to build a new attack. Also Aubameyang was never going to start up top as they had Lewandowski. 16 goals in 47 games(20 off the bench) is hardly a poor return for a 24 year old stepping up from the French league. Again with Persic you had a player stepping up from Brugge in his early 20s. 

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5 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

I think everyone knows we have enough players, we just don’t have quite enough quality players. Swap Origi and/or Minamino for someone young and properly good and the same for Keita/Ox and we would be cooking on all the gas burners.

 

It’s annoying because Klopp is amazing and even despite Man City and Chelsea spunking shiploads of ill gotten gains everywhere, this is probably the best chance we’ll have to win stuff and dominate for the foreseeable.

 

Despite that I think we’ve got a good chance of the League and Europe, biggest worry for me is Mane, and if he can recover his best form.

Good post but I would have to disagree on one part. The is no dominating for the foreseeable no matter who we buy and I included Mbappe and Halaand in that. The oil cheats will just keep on coming back for more, throwing more and more money at the next 3 Mbappe's. Replacing Klopp with the best possible alternative and  continuing to get 80% of our signings right will just keep us competitive. 

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33 minutes ago, m0e said:

Edwards was an equal part of a 5 man committee. He's now top dog.

And even then there was a 6 man analytics team behind them, and a team of junior data analysts no doubt.

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33 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Is that a fact?

Yes. We offered Sanchez 60% of the arsenal wage. Never agreed a fee for mychaterian (sp) and Dortmund did, Costa we never had a bid accepted (sold what, a year later?), Willian got blown out of the water by Chelsea. 

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28 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

The pont was being made earlier that we've nothing to worry about when klopp goes because he doesn't run the whole club like Wenger did and we've got Edwards so the upheaval mightn't be so bad and Edwards will be able to pick a new man. My point is there's fuck all to suggest Edwards has either the capability to work successfully with another manager or indeed select a new one. In fact quite the opposite, our only sample is what Edwards did with Rodgers and where klopp is concerned, FSG identified ancelotti and klopp, klopp sold himself better, so no big thumbs for Edwards there. 

I think you’re misrepresenting  @Jose Jones there Barry. Don’t think he evert said that. My point is without Klopp, we probably would’ve got the same set of players as we do now. Whether a different manager would be able to get as much out of the players as Klopp is questionable. I’d say unlikely. However if it was only down to Klopp alone, two of our best players over that past 5 years wouldn’t be at the club. So in the interest of fairness, you gotta give the recruiters some credit too.

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2 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Michael Edwards was the chap who took care of the Suarez money when he left. Wanting to replace him with balotteli, etoo and Lambert. He thought markovic was a footballer. Albie moreno too. Edwards has only shown his quality since klopp has run the rule over the incomings. I'm not saying klopp is discovering them, but I 100% think he rules plenty out where the spreadsheet says yes. Klopp has done it throughout his managerial career. 

Some people seem to think Edwards is some business guru who could probably convince Richard Branson to pay tax.

 

He's not as overrated as Marcel Brands but people overstate how good he is. 

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16 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yes. We offered Sanchez 60% of the arsenal wage. Never agreed a fee for mychaterian (sp) and Dortmund did, Costa we never had a bid accepted (sold what, a year later?), Willian got blown out of the water by Chelsea. 

60%, you say? He was on 140k at Arsenal initially, so our offer was 85k? Yeah nah, I don't believe that, unless you have an article for me.

 

Also, what we offered financially wasn't really relevant. My point was we were mostly targeting the right players, which is what you judge scouting on. That we weren't able to buy them is a separate issue. If you want to say our alternatives to those players were then poor, I won't argue that. I think our scouting since we had this transfer committee thing and then Edwards as DoF has been on the whole very good.

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59 minutes ago, aRdja said:

I think you’re misrepresenting  @Jose Jones there Barry. Don’t think he evert said that. My point is without Klopp, we probably would’ve got the same set of players as we do now. Whether a different manager would be able to get as much out of the players as Klopp is questionable. I’d say unlikely. However if it was only down to Klopp alone, two of our best players over that past 5 years wouldn’t be at the club. So in the interest of fairness, you gotta give the recruiters some credit too.

We wouldn't have Van Dijk and Alisson without Klopp, two massive parts of the puzzle.

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