Nathaniel Phillips

[suzy]

I really hope he stays, I think he’d get a good few games anyway. Like others have said we don’t know how Virgil and Gomez especially will cope after their long lay offs.

[VladimirIlyich]

3 minutes ago, suzy said:

I really hope he stays, I think he’d get a good few games anyway. Like others have said we don’t know how Virgil and Gomez especially will cope after their long lay offs.

We will have VVD,Gomez,Matip(no laughing!)Konate and Phillips if he stayed. Five centre halves with first team experience would be great but I fear the economics of the situation might dictate otherwise.

[Aventus]

3 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

We will have VVD,Gomez,Matip(no laughing!)Konate and Phillips if he stayed. Five centre halves with first team experience would be great but I fear the economics of the situation might dictate otherwise.

Worrying about the economics of our centre backs almost cost us top 4.

 

Keeping Phillips for one more season isn't going to do us much harm. 

 

[El Rojo]

He was a real leader in that ten game streak that got us out of the horrors of Thursday night football. Of course we're keeping him. 

 

Easily one of the most Jurgen Klopp players we have, there's no way he's selling him. 

[VladimirIlyich]

4 minutes ago, Aventus said:

Worrying about the economics of our centre backs almost cost us top 4.

 

Keeping Phillips for one more season isn't going to do us much harm. 

 

I hope you are right.

[Bjornebye]

All he can do is learn and improve from here on in, I'm looking forward to seeing him alongside VVD when Konate gets injured and joins Gomez and Matip on treatment table. 

[JohnnyH]

Do people think Phillips is now on a par with, with the chance of being ahead of, Konate, Gomez or Matip in the pecking order? 

 

Do they think Klopp won't have Phillips as 5th choice if he doesn't sell him?

If Klopp does now think that Philips is good enough to be an important part of the squad that is looking to again challenge for, and win, league titles and European Cups, then I'll be happy to say I've mis-judged Phillips abilities.  But I don't think that will be case. Posters can write these weird "disrespect" posts about how Phillips looked like a £50m footballer in a defence, when the truth is we were giving up huge chances every game, and finished with an abysmal points total and only luckily got top 4.

 

And it's not anti- scouse, or anti-youth team, or anti-whatever other moronic comment was made.  It's that I don't think he has the overall abilities we need to see from a CB.  A big fella who can head it away really well and knock it off the line is great, and needed at times, but a team wanting to win the lot needs a lot more than that.  Thus why we've just spent £40m on a new CB.

 

People like me saying Phillips isn't good enough aren't disrespecting him. We are just saying that the level Liverpool now want to be at means our CBs need to be in the top 1% or 2% in world football.  That's not Phillips.  He will hopefully have a good lower PL, but probably upper Championship, level career.  An that's great and still a hell of an achievement. 

 

But there's a reason we had a drop off of 30 points this season and only just got into the top 4 thanks to Leicester and Chelsea ahead of us collapsing while we were relying on our goalkeeper scoring in the 95th minute to keep us on track.

 

I wonder had Alisson's header flashed wide and the resultant loss of momentum resulted in us finishing 5th or 6th, would the same people be writing weird posts around some made up disrespect for Phillips?

 

Chances are Klopp will either sell him, or have him as 5th choice getting runs in the League Cup.  I assume that will anger the people who seem to have decided that not thinking Phillips is good enough for a title winning CB role is disrespectful, but so be it if it does.  I'll continue to trust Klopp.

 

However, if Klopp does decide Phillips can be an important player who gets starts in the league and European cup ahead of the other CBs when they're fit, then I'll happily come back here and hold my hands up. 

[aws]

It would be interesting to compare points per game where Nat played to those where he didn't. My recollection is that Nat's emergence more or less coincided with the period where we stopped conceding cheap goals and started looking like a proper team again. 

He probably will be fifth choice but it wouldn't surprise me if a fifth choice who seems to be fit most of the time ends up playing more games next season than at least some of those who are above him in the pecking order. 

Good things about last season:

1.Finishing third

2. Big Nat

3. Hmmm....

[Preston Red]

4 minutes ago, aws said:

It would be interesting to compare points per game where Nat played to those where he didn't. My recollection is that Nat's emergence more or less coincided with the period where we stopped conceding cheap goals and started looking like a proper team again. 

He probably will be fifth choice but it wouldn't surprise me if a fifth choice who seems to be fit most of the time ends up playing more games next season than at least some of those who are above him in the pecking order. 

Good things about last season:

1.Finishing third

2. Big Nat

3. Everton finishing 10th after winning the league in September...

Fixed.

[No2]

5 minutes ago, aws said:

It would be interesting to compare points per game where Nat played to those where he didn't. My recollection is that Nat's emergence more or less coincided with the period where we stopped conceding cheap goals and started looking like a proper team again. 

He probably will be fifth choice but it wouldn't surprise me if a fifth choice who seems to be fit most of the time ends up playing more games next season than at least some of those who are above him in the pecking order. 

Good things about last season:

1.Finishing third

2. Big Nat

3. Hmmm....

There would be a direct correlation with Fabinho playing back in his actual position. I'm not knocking Phillips but if the six in front of him and the 2 fullbacks do their job well his job becomes relatively easy. For the last 6 weeks or so that was the case. 

 

Phillips has cemented his place in the squad as the new Klavin. Grand for a handful of games and a great (better than Klavin) option for seeing out injury time. If we plays 20 games for us next year its means bad news on the injury front again.

[Guest Alex_K]

He's a "poor" to "very poor" player. Palace game:

• Beaten by Townsend in a 50/50 on the halfway line, as he's one of the slowest players in the league. Lucky we didn't concede.
• Got completely done by Zaha on pretty much the only occasion Zaha was able to get the ball in the game. Again, lucky we didn't concede.

So yes, just that game in isolation where we could very easily on another day have missed out on European competition due to his woeful lack of pace, pretty much literally the only occasions Palace had the ball in our half. Not remotely the answer for the team on any consistent basis.

[Curly]

On 24/05/2021 at 22:52, belarus said:

Hahaha

We’ve lost 3 in 19 with him playing, one being the cl game against Madrid.

 

Since Christmas we lost 6 of the 11 games without him.

 

1 hour ago, aws said:

It would be interesting to compare points per game where Nat played to those where he didn't. My recollection is that Nat's emergence more or less coincided with the period where we stopped conceding cheap goals and started looking like a proper team again. 

He probably will be fifth choice but it wouldn't surprise me if a fifth choice who seems to be fit most of the time ends up playing more games next season than at least some of those who are above him in the pecking order. 

Good things about last season:

1.Finishing third

2. Big Nat

3. Hmmm....

Not points per game exactly, but the wins and losses listed above, from games with and without him say it all

[m0e]

I think he'll need a run of games to show his true worth, like a did last season.

 

I don't think he'll get that at Liverpool.

 

Lovren and Gomez always needed a few games to get back into the groove.

 

That's what makes Matip all the more special. The fact he can be out for 3 months and then come back in and perform at the highest level.

 

The problem is, we only know this because of how frequently it happens.

 

I want Phillips to stay, by the way.

 

There is no way we can count VVD, Gomez, Matip and Konate as 4 first team centre backs until the season after next.

 

Maybe 2 combined?

 

And even if we did count them as 4, I'd still want him to stay.

[Curly]

1 hour ago, Alex_K said:

He's a "poor" to "very poor" player. Palace game:

• Beaten by Townsend in a 50/50 on the halfway line, as he's one of the slowest players in the league. Lucky we didn't concede.
• Got completely done by Zaha on pretty much the only occasion Zaha was able to get the ball in the game. Again, lucky we didn't concede.

So yes, just that game in isolation where we could very easily on another day have missed out on European competition due to his woeful lack of pace, pretty much literally the only occasions Palace had the ball in our half. Not remotely the answer for the team on any consistent basis.

The bit in bold was a loose pass from Trent. Not on Phillips at all that one

[dave u]

2 hours ago, JohnnyH said:

Do people think Phillips is now on a par with, with the chance of being ahead of, Konate, Gomez or Matip in the pecking order? 

 

Do they think Klopp won't have Phillips as 5th choice if he doesn't sell him?

If Klopp does now think that Philips is good enough to be an important part of the squad that is looking to again challenge for, and win, league titles and European Cups, then I'll be happy to say I've mis-judged Phillips abilities.  But I don't think that will be case. Posters can write these weird "disrespect" posts about how Phillips looked like a £50m footballer in a defence, when the truth is we were giving up huge chances every game, and finished with an abysmal points total and only luckily got top 4.

 

And it's not anti- scouse, or anti-youth team, or anti-whatever other moronic comment was made.  It's that I don't think he has the overall abilities we need to see from a CB.  A big fella who can head it away really well and knock it off the line is great, and needed at times, but a team wanting to win the lot needs a lot more than that.  Thus why we've just spent £40m on a new CB.

 

People like me saying Phillips isn't good enough aren't disrespecting him. We are just saying that the level Liverpool now want to be at means our CBs need to be in the top 1% or 2% in world football.  That's not Phillips.  He will hopefully have a good lower PL, but probably upper Championship, level career.  An that's great and still a hell of an achievement. 

 

But there's a reason we had a drop off of 30 points this season and only just got into the top 4 thanks to Leicester and Chelsea ahead of us collapsing while we were relying on our goalkeeper scoring in the 95th minute to keep us on track.

 

I wonder had Alisson's header flashed wide and the resultant loss of momentum resulted in us finishing 5th or 6th, would the same people be writing weird posts around some made up disrespect for Phillips?

 

Chances are Klopp will either sell him, or have him as 5th choice getting runs in the League Cup.  I assume that will anger the people who seem to have decided that not thinking Phillips is good enough for a title winning CB role is disrespectful, but so be it if it does.  I'll continue to trust Klopp.

 

However, if Klopp does decide Phillips can be an important player who gets starts in the league and European cup ahead of the other CBs when they're fit, then I'll happily come back here and hold my hands up. 

 

Most of that is completely fair and I would agree with it, but when you talk about the terrible points tally we had and there 'being 'a reason for that' that is disingenuous given our record when Phillips was actually on the field. I'd imagine he is either top or close to the top in terms of points per game when he was in the team.

 

We won eight of the last ten and the two draws were in games when Phillips didn't play. 

 

The 30 point drop off had nothing to do with Nat Phillips and on a list of the problems we had last season, not only would he not be high on that list, he shouldn't be on it at all. He was a fucking giant.

 

That doesn't mean he can expect to be anything other than 5th choice but let's not pin any of the shit we saw this season on him, as he's one of the main reasons the season didn't end in a complete catastrophe.

[dave u]

36 minutes ago, belarus said:

The bit in bold was a loose pass from Trent. Not on Phillips at all that one

Plus Zaha can do that to any defender in the league. He's arguably the best one v one attacker in the country.

 

And he was offside and it wouldn't have counted anyway!

[Aventus]

2 hours ago, JohnnyH said:

But there's a reason we had a drop off of 30 points this season and only just got into the top 4 thanks to Leicester and Chelsea ahead of us collapsing while we were relying on our goalkeeper scoring in the 95th minute to keep us on track.

That reason might be something to do with the other end of the pitch. 

 

Only 3 teams conceded fewer goals than us despite us changing our centre back pairings almost weekly, Phillips is the main reason we conceded so few given the circumstances, he isn't the reason we finished where we did, but I suppose he's also the main reason we went undefeated during the run in, so maybe he is the reason we finished where we did. 

[magicrat]

9 minutes ago, dave u said:

Plus Zaha can do that to any defender in the league. He's arguably the best one v one attacker in the country.

 

And he was offside and it wouldn't have counted anyway!

Yep he was offside, spotted it at the time, but seems to have been ignored by most of those paid to give us greater insight into the game. 

[JohnnyH]

18 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

Most of that is completely fair and I would agree with it, but when you talk about the terrible points tally we had and there 'being 'a reason for that' that is disingenuous given our record when Phillips was actually on the field. I'd imagine he is either top or close to the top in terms of points per game when he was in the team.

 

We won eight of the last ten and the two draws were in games when Phillips didn't play. 

 

The 30 point drop off had nothing to do with Nat Phillips and on a list of the problems we had last season, not only would he not be high on that list, he shouldn't be on it at all. He was a fucking giant.

 

That doesn't mean he can expect to be anything other than 5th choice but let's not pin any of the shit we saw this season on him, as he's one of the main reasons the season didn't end in a complete catastrophe.

I agree.  My point about the huge drop off was a general one as people seem to be referencing this season quite a bit when using it justify players getting a chance, when it's a season that should mainly only be referenced for its mistakes and issues.

 

Phillips did well this year.  Many of the huge chances we gave up were down to his partner.  But he has significant limits to his play.  And that's the issue.  He did well, it's just that his level is not the level we need.  People need to stop seeing that as having a go at the fella.  It's just that he's not bordering on, or anywhere near, world class when that's the level we are looking now at talent.  

 

I do think had Klopp settled on Phillips and Williams earlier we'd probably have finished 2nd. Maybe even given City a bit of a run for their money for a bit more of the season.

 

Phillips wasn't the reason we finished 30 points less than the previous season.  Losing world class and close to world class centre backs and midfielders and attackers was.  Having to replace them with players not at that level, such as Phillips was why we had a season we would rather not have again any time soon.

[Guest Alex_K]

1 hour ago, belarus said:

The bit in bold was a loose pass from Trent. Not on Phillips at all that one

Yes it was, because an able-bodied centre back would have cut the ball out regardless of the looseness of the pass. It was painful watching how slowly he covered that ground. TAA will lose balls at times because he's an adventurous full back, arguably the best in the world at what he does. The centre back needs to be able to compensate for that. Risk/reward .. the team in the long run will be more successful w/ TAA playing the way he does. You do not get rid of that style of play to accommodate one of the slowest centre halfs in the entire division.

[dave u]

1 minute ago, JohnnyH said:

It's just that he's not bordering on, or anywhere near, world class when that's the level we are looking now at talent. 

 

Very true. However, there isn't a team in the world who is going to have a world class player as their 5th option. We have world class in Van Dijk and Matip. We have potentially world class in Gomez and Konate. Personally I think we'd be crazy to go into this season without Phillips as an insurance policy.

 

If he's accepting of a squad place as the 5th centre back, that's a no brainer because he's on peanuts, he's a great lad with an incredible mentality and if he needs to play a dozen games next season we already know that we can win games with him playing.

 

Anyone suggesting he's better than any of the established three obviously needs sectioning (sorry Dad!). I'm not prepared to automatically assume Konate is better than him as he hasn't even played yet and we don't know how he will adapt, but he'll immediately be higher in the pecking order to start with because of his fee and reputation.

 

So put it this way. I think we all agree that given the fitness problems all of the other four have had, we definitely need five centre backs. But why would we waste money signing another one who won't play much and who - if he's at the 'world class' level you say we need - is not going to come here if he's got four players ahead of him?

 

Phillips should be a part of the squad if he wants to be and I can't understand why anyone would pushing for anything else. If Klopp decides Williams is a better long term bet and wants him as the 5th choice instead, I'm happy to back his judgement but the more likely scenario is surely Williams on loan (maybe to Blackpool in the Championship) and Nat sticking around as cover. 

[TheHowieLama]

42 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

there isn't a team in the world who is going to have a world class player as their 5th option

I have no idea who City's 5th CB is - but I know he wasn't in the team of the year.

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

Make him 5th choice and reserve captain with a wage boost. If he wants off 50m.

[3 Stacks]

1 hour ago, dave u said:

Plus Zaha can do that to any defender in the league. He's arguably the best one v one attacker in the country.

 

And he was offside and it wouldn't have counted anyway!

Not every defender. We largely need central defenders that can defend 1v1. Van Dijk, Gomez and Matip are all excellent at it and it's part of the reason you sign a 6 foot 4 athletic freak that can run like Konate. 

 

And as much as Phillips deserves credit and can absolutely stay if he wants to be nominally 5th choice, there are numerous examples of him looking quite stupid when players ran at him. If he was good at that along with everything else he does, we wouldn't have needed to spend big money on a CB, but we did.

[Curly]

1 hour ago, Alex_K said:

Yes it was, because an able-bodied centre back would have cut the ball out regardless of the looseness of the pass. It was painful watching how slowly he covered that ground. TAA will lose balls at times because he's an adventurous full back, arguably the best in the world at what he does. The centre back needs to be able to compensate for that. Risk/reward .. the team in the long run will be more successful w/ TAA playing the way he does. You do not get rid of that style of play to accommodate one of the slowest centre halfs in the entire division.

I think you need to watch the clip back, because the ball was bad. It made Phillips commit to trying to get there and gave Townsend the run on him as it came into him.

 

Relinquishing blame from Trent for making a mistake because he’s “adventurous” and laying it at someone else’s feet because you don’t rate them is ridiculous.