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Nathaniel Phillips

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5 minutes ago, Josef Svejk said:

Probably because this thread is about one of our defenders. Lots of other threads about other aspects of our performance. 

fair comment thought i was on another thread haha 

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2 minutes ago, andyj said:

fair comment thought i was on another thread haha 

I do agree that our problems last night went beyond our defence, for what it's worth. 

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Somehow feel its a moot point discussing Nat, considering he knows his level,  we know his level and we put him in games that are beyond him. Nice lad, a reasonable stop gap, but nothing more. There are those around him who have far more ability than him, who are more culpable for that shambles last night. 

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2 hours ago, Code said:

If Matip had played we would win this game 0-1. 

I think Fabinho + Matip or even Kabak + Matip partnership and we probably win or draw the game based on past performance, yes. But Matip is not a luxury we have. 

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16 hours ago, Code said:

Involved in all three goals.

 

If we are honest he was absolute shite, but I have no expectations. If you dont have pace at this level, you need supreme qualities to make up for it, Phillips doesnt,

 

But he is what we have right now. Unless Van Dijk is back for the final we stand no chance, but we can still hope we can get there.

Involved in all 3 goals? As in he was on the pitch?

 

The first goal - as you even say “we don’t man mark” so how would you be expected to track a man running in the channel behind you while your full back watches him, while watching the man in front of you and holding your line and shape with the other centre back and left back? People blaming Phillips for that are absolutely clueless.

 

The second goal was a mistake from Trent’s ridiculous back header. Very confused with that one.

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Second goal was obviously Trent. First goal .. watching it back I think it’s a goal we never ever concede with Virgil, Matip or to lesser extent Gomez on the pitch. With the former two the long ball gets cut out in the air; Gomez may have cut it out too, but if not he’s got recovery pace to put the forward under pressure. Philips due to his lack of physical tools is in the position where if he doesn’t cut the initial ball out, he’s totally fucked. That kind of situation isn’t going to fly when you’re playing high or world class footballers.

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1 hour ago, Alex_K said:

Second goal was obviously Trent. First goal .. watching it back I think it’s a goal we never ever concede with Virgil, Matip or to lesser extent Gomez on the pitch. With the former two the long ball gets cut out in the air; Gomez may have cut it out too, but if not he’s got recovery pace to put the forward under pressure. Philips due to his lack of physical tools is in the position where if he doesn’t cut the initial ball out, he’s totally fucked. That kind of situation isn’t going to fly when you’re playing high or world class footballers.

He was holding his line mate. The ball beat him - it was a good ball. The run beat Trent. Any of the 3 you mentioned could have got caught by that ball dropping behind them. It’s unbelievably harsh to pin that on Phillips. The lack of pressing for them to keep putting the ball in that position to hit the diagonal even, but mainly it’s Trent - he was a bystander. Even watching the clip back, you watch his body language and he looks disinterested.

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29 minutes ago, belarus said:

He was holding his line mate. The ball beat him - it was a good ball. The run beat Trent. Any of the 3 you mentioned could have got caught by that ball dropping behind them. It’s unbelievably harsh to pin that on Phillips. The lack of pressing for them to keep putting the ball in that position to hit the diagonal even, but mainly it’s Trent - he was a bystander. Even watching the clip back, you watch his body language and he looks disinterested.

When the ball is played Phillips (+ Kabak on the left side) is just inside the tip of the centre circle. Vincius about 5 yards back of him to the right, middle-ish between tip of circle & halfway line. By the time the ball lands Vincius has done Phillips for pace and is ahead of him just outside the area; Phillips can barely even get a glance on him as he runs past, completely takes him out fo the game and Vincius is under no pressure at all by the time he slots it in centrally just inside the area.

 

If you watch it back Kroos drops it like a dime in the space about 20 yards immediately behind Phillips. He does it because he knows Vincius is going to absolutely slay Phillips in that foot-race even starting much deeper. There's no way one of the 3 main CBs get done like that, but again that's why they're elite players while Nate has 20ish professional caps at 24 and was on his way from the German 2nd division to Bristol City this time last year. He is what he is. We'd see Gomez many, many times in past seasons make up the ground and sweep those balls out at the last. Its those kind of margins that separate the mediocre from the elite at this level.

 

To be honest the blame lies with Klopp last night for setting the side up as if we still had VVD/Matip/Gomez at the back. Its on Phillips lack of athleticism .. but really its on Klopp for setting the team up in a way that exposes that underbelly. Trent is having to run diagonally there to get to the space behind Phillips whereas Vincius is running more-or-less centrally the entire time; its an extremely tough ask for Trent to make that ground up from the standing start  and we know he's not an elite defensive full-back at the best of times, his game is offensive play. But Klopp's steadfast devotion to the system also won us a league and European Cup - so take the good with the bad. We went literally years without ever (or extremely rarely) conceding these kind of goals, which shows its personnel. The system works with the right players and it is woefully exposed with the wrong ones.

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19 hours ago, m0e said:

He'll be playing for a decent team next season, but never a CL team.

 

The fact he's starting for us against Real Madrid makes a mokery of how we planned the season, and how we reacted in January.

 

Utter shite from the club, and we're seeing the impact now.

What is more depressing is the club's signing of Davies. It was fucking comical. Who'd have thought when our 1st 4 choices at centre back were injured and all we have available is some kid who was playing at Kidderminster and another lad we couldn't sell to a German tier 2 side, that we could possibly go out and buy 2 centre backs and one of them would come in as 8th choice and 9th if you count Henderson. It's fucking incredulous and you know what, if we finish trophless and out of the European places it's exactly what the club deserves. 

10 hours ago, Chip Butty said:

Somehow feel its a moot point discussing Nat, considering he knows his level,  we know his level and we put him in games that are beyond him. Nice lad, a reasonable stop gap, but nothing more. There are those around him who have far more ability than him, who are more culpable for that shambles last night. 

I think we would all agree he's not at this level. I think it's fair discussion to point out his contribution and how it reflects on the club's squad management. 

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4 minutes ago, Alex_K said:

When the ball is played Phillips (+ Kabak on the left side) is just inside the tip of the centre circle. Vincius about 5 yards back of him to the right, middle-ish between tip of circle & halfway line. By the time the ball lands Vincius has done Phillips for pace and is ahead of him just outside the area; Phillips can barely even get a glance on him as he runs past, completely takes him out fo the game and Vincius is under no pressure at all by the time he slots it in centrally just inside the area.

 

If you watch it back Kroos drops it like a dime in the space about 20 yards immediately behind Phillips. He does it because he knows Vincius is going to absolutely slay Phillips in that foot-race even starting much deeper. There's no way one of the 3 main CBs get done like that, but again that's why they're elite players while Nate has 20ish professional caps at 24 and was on his way from the German 2nd division to Bristol City this time last year. He is what he is.

 

To be honest the blame lies with Klopp last night for setting the side up as if we still had VVD/Matip/Gomez at the back. Its on Phillips lack of athleticism .. but really its on Klopp for setting the team up in a way that exposes that underbelly. Trent is having to run diagonally there to get to the space behind Phillips whereas Vincius is running more-or-less centrally the entire time; its an extremely tough ask for Trent to make that ground up from the standing start  and we know he's not an elite defensive full-back at the best of times, his game is offensive play. But Klopp's steadfast devotion to the system also won us a league and European Cup - so take the good with the bad.

You just haven’t got a clue.  He’s the left winger running off the right back into the channel.  Trent should be grabbing him, getting in his way and screaming at Phillips to drop because the run is being made.  When Kroos has the ball he’s not Phillips problem, Benzema is.  He can’t continually keep looking over his shoulder to babysit Trent.  There should be more pressure on the ball and that’s on the midfield but he’s Trent’s man and he should be going with him because once again he can see Phillips is unaware of him.

 

Virg never plays on the right side so him playing wouldn’t have changed anything.  Gomez and Trent have had very similar problems with that exact ball as did Lovren when he had Trent alongside him.  Matip isn’t lightning quick either.

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22 minutes ago, The Guest said:

You just haven’t got a clue.  He’s the left winger running off the right back into the channel.  Trent should be grabbing him, getting in his way and screaming at Phillips to drop because the run is being made.  When Kroos has the ball he’s not Phillips problem, Benzema is.  He can’t continually keep looking over his shoulder to babysit Trent.  There should be more pressure on the ball and that’s on the midfield but he’s Trent’s man and he should be going with him because once again he can see Phillips is unaware of him.

 

Virg never plays on the right side so him playing wouldn’t have changed anything.  Gomez and Trent have had very similar problems with that exact ball as did Lovren when he had Trent alongside him.  Matip isn’t lightning quick either.

 

For your benefit I have attached 3 screnshots that map the flight of play & Phillip's sight of the ball. You'll see the centrality of Vincius position, his run and from where he places the final shot. He takes his very first touch once he is ahead of Phillips, 10 yards or so outside the area, centrally-ish. As for VVD/Joe/Matip .. well objectively and factually speaking we would very rarely concede these goals with them in the team. Matip/Fabinho even had a very good defensive record. That's all I can say.

 

Now as a general comment, I find the thickest typically yap the loudest. I mentioned earlier in the thread the banality of you, with utter conviction, slandering Benitez' tactics/teamsheet in a game which ultimately existed purely inside your own head. You wrote that the game happened 12 years ago and you got confused. That's OK - most memories muddy. However, it takes a special type of illness to write vociferously about a fantasy on the internet, and to then cotinually stroll from thread to thread in constant antagonistic arguements thereafter (I think you were offered out on another one already today). I saw you replied to another one of my posts earlier in the day; I didn't read the reply, nor will I hereafter. Hope you get the help you need.

Starting Position.png

Ball Travels.png

Final Position.png

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3 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

What is more depressing is the club's signing of Davies. It was fucking comical. Who'd have thought when our 1st 4 choices at centre back were injured and all we have available is some kid who was playing at Kidderminster and another lad we couldn't sell to a German tier 2 side, that we could possibly go out and buy 2 centre backs and one of them would come in as 8th choice and 9th if you count Henderson. It's fucking incredulous and you know what, if we finish trophless and out of the European places it's exactly what the club deserves. 

I think we would all agree he's not at this level. I think it's fair discussion to point out his contribution and how it reflects on the club's squad management. 

You called it with Davies. Its actually unbelievable how bad we handled this.

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2 hours ago, Alex_K said:

 

For your benefit I have attached 3 screnshots that map the flight of play & Phillip's sight of the ball. You'll see the centrality of Vincius position, his run and from where he places the final shot. He takes his very first touch once he is ahead of Phillips, 10 yards or so outside the area, centrally-ish. As for VVD/Joe/Matip .. well objectively and factually speaking we would very rarely concede these goals with them in the team. Matip/Fabinho even had a very good defensive record. That's all I can say.

 

Now as a general comment, I find the thickest typically yap the loudest. I mentioned earlier in the thread the banality of you, with utter conviction, slandering Benitez' tactics/teamsheet in a game which ultimately existed purely inside your own head. You wrote that the game happened 12 years ago and you got confused. That's OK - most memories muddy. However, it takes a special type of illness to write vociferously about a fantasy on the internet, and to then cotinually stroll from thread to thread in constant antagonistic arguements thereafter (I think you were offered out on another one already today). I saw you replied to another one of my posts earlier in the day; I didn't read the reply, nor will I hereafter. Hope you get the help you need.

Starting Position.png

Ball Travels.png

Final Position.png

You’ve conveniently cut off the 3 or 4 seconds before the ball is played because it doesn’t suit what you are trying to shoehorn in.  At that point Robertson is occupied by Ascensio, Kabak is looking at Modric so Phillips shifts across to stop any ball into Benzema.  Trent is completely asleep and for some reason is halfway near Mendy which is stupid really because he’s not a threat and if a ball gets played out to him the whole defence could shift across.

 

Just as the ball is played Phillips notices Vinicius and Trent’s laughable positioning.  Modric and Ascensio have dropped to look for a pass so it suddenly looks like the defence are only dealing with two attackers which they weren’t.  Phillips can’t do anything at any point.  If Trent had been in position then Vinicius can’t take that first touch.  I can’t believe that Klopp or the coaches won’t have analysed that any club we will play against will hit balls down that channel.  It’s the biggest weakness we have and it’s because if Trent and his arrogant lazy Shite defending attitude.  That ball doesn’t happen on Robertson’s side because he’s not any of those things.  He needs to be spoken to and retrained like a child from the ground up if he’s going to last there long term.

 

Benitez is a knobhead who lived off having Gerrard in his team.  Before he fully got his claws into him we were winning trophies.  His shithouse behaviour and tactics cost him the league title he deserved.  It’s a shame Gerrard didn’t have an attacking manager in his prime because his cabinet would have been bursting.  The idolisation of Benitez is fucking laughable in my eyes and the absolute mess he’s created at every club he’s been at since confirms it.

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21 hours ago, The Guest said:

Who is Trent occupying when Vinicius runs off him?  What’s he doing exactly other than just standing there with no other player in sight?  He should follow him over because he’s the danger. He can see that Phillips doesn’t know he’s there as well which makes the whole thing worse.  Ferdinand broke it down after the game and said the exact same thing I’m saying.  At least he should shout to him if he can’t be arsed going with him and he doesn’t even do that.  You can see the shock that he’s there when Phillips first sees him.  Phillips isn’t even in that bad a position and the shot goes through his legs so he’s fairly unlucky he doesn’t block it.

The thing is we don't know what Klopps instructions are when it comes to runner going through different zones, does he want them to track the runner or is he telling the players to pass the player off to the man in the zone?

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8 hours ago, The Guest said:

You’ve conveniently cut off the 3 or 4 seconds before the ball is played because it doesn’t suit what you are trying to shoehorn in.  At that point Robertson is occupied by Ascensio, Kabak is looking at Modric so Phillips shifts across to stop any ball into Benzema.  Trent is completely asleep and for some reason is halfway near Mendy which is stupid really because he’s not a threat and if a ball gets played out to him the whole defence could shift across.

 

Just as the ball is played Phillips notices Vinicius and Trent’s laughable positioning.  Modric and Ascensio have dropped to look for a pass so it suddenly looks like the defence are only dealing with two attackers which they weren’t.  Phillips can’t do anything at any point.  If Trent had been in position then Vinicius can’t take that first touch.  I can’t believe that Klopp or the coaches won’t have analysed that any club we will play against will hit balls down that channel.  It’s the biggest weakness we have and it’s because if Trent and his arrogant lazy Shite defending attitude.  That ball doesn’t happen on Robertson’s side because he’s not any of those things.  He needs to be spoken to and retrained like a child from the ground up if he’s going to last there long term.

 

Benitez is a knobhead who lived off having Gerrard in his team.  Before he fully got his claws into him we were winning trophies.  His shithouse behaviour and tactics cost him the league title he deserved.  It’s a shame Gerrard didn’t have an attacking manager in his prime because his cabinet would have been bursting.  The idolisation of Benitez is fucking laughable in my eyes and the absolute mess he’s created at every club he’s been at since confirms it.

Hmmmmmmmm

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2 hours ago, SlugTrail said:

The thing is we don't know what Klopps instructions are when it comes to runner going through different zones, does he want them to track the runner or is he telling the players to pass the player off to the man in the zone?

Our entire defensive setup, from front to back, is completely zonal under Klopp, and always has been.

 

It was a fantastic ball from Kroos, Vinicius is lightning and took a great touch on the run, we know Nat (and Trent for that matter) aren't the quickest. Madrid set up to play these long balls into the channels and over the top, that's why Casemiro was positioned ahead of Kroos and Modric most of the night, Kroos even mentioned it in his interview after the match.

 

Kabak doesn't exactly cover himself in glory on this goal either btw, i reckon Van Dijk or Matip would have dropped much quicker to help out in anticipation of Vinicius getting the other side of Phillips.

 

IMO, we shouldn't have gone with such a high line and a full pitch press for this match, but it's what the squad know. And maybe if we hadn't been complete shite in possession ourselves for the entire first half we wouldn't have been caught out with these long balls so often.

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10 hours ago, The Guest said:

Benitez is a knobhead who lived off having Gerrard in his team.  Before he fully got his claws into him we were winning trophies.  His shithouse behaviour and tactics cost him the league title he deserved.  It’s a shame Gerrard didn’t have an attacking manager in his prime because his cabinet would have been bursting. 

Utter rubbish.

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10 hours ago, The Guest said:

Benitez is a knobhead who lived off having Gerrard in his team.  Before he fully got his claws into him we were winning trophies.  His shithouse behaviour and tactics cost him the league title he deserved.  It’s a shame Gerrard didn’t have an attacking manager in his prime because his cabinet would have been bursting.  The idolisation of Benitez is fucking laughable in my eyes and the absolute mess he’s created at every club he’s been at since confirms it.

Benitez a nob head? Go and support Man City or Chelsea you over opinionated spoilt twat.

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