Diogo Jota

[whtwht]

Just now, Barrington Womble said:

Sure, but we're not a charity. If their bodies aren't up to elite level football, they need not being playing here. Being able to stay fit and available is as important as footballing talent. 

I'd agree with that I think we needed to be more ruthless

[VladimirIlyich]

11 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

Sure, but we're not a charity. If their bodies aren't up to elite level football, they need not being playing here. Being able to stay fit and available is as important as footballing talent. 

I don't think that's feasible any more. Putting aside the contract legalities the evidence seems to suggest that more and more footballers are becoming prone to these 'overuse' injuries due to the sheer amount of games involved at the elite levels of football. It seems to increase year on year and with lads who are twice as fit as Butcher's Dogs.

 

[Barrington Womble]

52 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I don't think that's feasible any more. Putting aside the contract legalities the evidence seems to suggest that more and more footballers are becoming prone to these 'overuse' injuries due to the sheer amount of games involved at the elite levels of football. It seems to increase year on year and with lads who are twice as fit as Butcher's Dogs.

 

We'll forget the legal side, you just make them available for sale, it's not issue. You just mightn't get top dollar, because they're proven crocks. But you'll always move them on because there's some fool who think they can fix the problems. That's a story as old as football. 

 

The other side of it does matter though. We still have 25 man squads despite these additional demands and games, so it's crucial you don't waste half a dozen of them as players who can't be available when you need them. There'll always be injuries, but there are some players who just can't get on the pitch because their bodies are not right for elite level football and the demands you talk of. There's plenty of players who manage it, you need to find more of them and it becomes more important part of the recruitment process. 

 

Take for example some of our recent crock issues:

 

Chamberlain - known problems before we bought him, shouldn't never have been on our radar for that reason. 

 

Keita - not the same, so some bad luck, but by 3 years it was clear he was a waste of space. We got good offers for him, but not big enough for the fsg bean counters, we weren't willing to price in his injuries. We got 2 years of nothing. Hurting the team in the process. 

 

Thiago - a player who has carried injuries through his whole career. We should never have gone near him. A perfect example of a club thinking they can fix problems others have consistently failed to do ands buy them anyway.  

 

Jones - a developing player, it sometimes happens. This season is major, if he can't get through it relatively injury free, it's time to pack him off. 

 

Konate - barely kicked a ball for the 2 season before we signed him. Another who we thought would just get through his problems. We've played him once a week max for his entire career here and just about every time we try for more, he breaks down. Get rid. He's where keita was 3 years in. 

 

Jota - I'm not sure of his history before we signed him, but he's been consistently injured since he got here. He's in the Jones category, get over it or off you pop. 

 

Matip - again, I'm not sure of his record before he was here..and at least he was free. But he never showed capability of staying fit. He's gone, but every season his lack of availability hurt us. We needed to be more ruthless and replace him. 

 

So out of those players, for me there's some we should never have signed. There's some we should have got rid of earlier. There's some who should be in the last chance saloon but probably aren't. As a club we have to get better at this, it's one of our biggest failings and has fucked us 3 of the last 4 season. 

[No2]

17 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

We'll forget the legal side, you just make them available for sale, it's not issue. You just mightn't get top dollar, because they're proven crocks. But you'll always move them on because there's some fool who think they can fix the problems. That's a story as old as football. 

 

The other side of it does matter though. We still have 25 man squads despite these additional demands and games, so it's crucial you don't waste half a dozen of them as players who can't be available when you need them. There'll always be injuries, but there are some players who just can't get on the pitch because their bodies are not right for elite level football and the demands you talk of. There's plenty of players who manage it, you need to find more of them and it becomes more important part of the recruitment process. 

 

Take for example some of our recent crock issues:

 

Chamberlain - known problems before we bought him, shouldn't never have been on our radar for that reason. 

 

Keita - not the same, so some bad luck, but by 3 years it was clear he was a waste of space. We got good offers for him, but not big enough for the fsg bean counters, we weren't willing to price in his injuries. We got 2 years of nothing. Hurting the team in the process. 

 

Thiago - a player who has carried injuries through his whole career. We should never have gone near him. A perfect example of a club thinking they can fix problems others have consistently failed to do ands buy them anyway.  

 

Jones - a developing player, it sometimes happens. This season is major, if he can't get through it relatively injury free, it's time to pack him off. 

 

Konate - barely kicked a ball for the 2 season before we signed him. Another who we thought would just get through his problems. We've played him once a week max for his entire career here and just about every time we try for more, he breaks down. Get rid. He's where keita was 3 years in. 

 

Jota - I'm not sure of his history before we signed him, but he's been consistently injured since he got here. He's in the Jones category, get over it or off you pop. 

 

Matip - again, I'm not sure of his record before he was here..and at least he was free. But he never showed capability of staying fit. He's gone, but every season his lack of availability hurt us. We needed to be more ruthless and replace him. 

 

So out of those players, for me there's some we should never have signed. There's some we should have got rid of earlier. There's some who should be in the last chance saloon but probably aren't. As a club we have to get better at this, it's one of our biggest failings and has fucked us 3 of the last 4 season. 

It's not as simplistic as that. These players are among the top 5% best paid in the world. This isn't a Liverpool problem, be it injuries, shitness or something else there simply isn't a market for failed players once they reach a certain wage.

 

Off the top of my head, Pepe left Arsenal for free. Tierney will eventually leave for free.

Danny Drinkwater left Chelsea for free.

Phil Jones left Utd for free.

Everton signed a lad got injured immediately and left for free at the end of his contract. It's unavoidable, sign someone on high money then you're screwed unless you happen to have friends (City and Newcastle) that will take you're shite.

 

I 100% agree on not signing crocks, Ox was crazy from the outset, Konate a close second. You can make an argument for a well priced and extremely talented player like Thiago but not ordinary players. 

 

 

[an tha]

Being everbody elses cup final does not help either.

 

Jota may have a very patchy injury record - same with Jones but they were both flying until getting bad impact injuries away at an overzealous Brentford.
 

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, No2 said:

It's not as simplistic as that. These players are among the top 5% best paid in the world. This isn't a Liverpool problem, be it injuries, shitness or something else there simply isn't a market for failed players once they reach a certain wage.

 

Off the top of my head, Pepe left Arsenal for free. Tierney will eventually leave for free.

Danny Drinkwater left Chelsea for free.

Phil Jones left Utd for free.

Everton signed a lad got injured immediately and left for free at the end of his contract. It's unavoidable, sign someone on high money then you're screwed unless you happen to have friends (City and Newcastle) that will take you're shite.

 

I 100% agree on not signing crocks, Ox was crazy from the outset, Konate a close second. You can make an argument for a well priced and extremely talented player like Thiago but not ordinary players. 

 

 

 

Are they all that well paid though? Most of our players come in on much smaller salaries and then get the big money on the 2nd contract. As I say, the example of Keita is a good one. There were offers for them. We just wanted more. In fact the same was true of chamberlain. I think most lads on their first contract with us could find clubs elsewhere in the PL or as seemed possible, the likes of PSG for konate this summer, but it seems we want to roll the dice again. 

 

Pepe left arsenal for free because he's fucking shit at football. You make a fair point about Tierney that he'll see his contract out, but arsenal weren't trying to shift him 2 years ago, they were still trying to magic him onto the pitch - same as we'll be doing with konate this season. My argument for Pepe stands for Drinkwater and Phil Jones too. Chamberlain, keita, thiago, matip, Jones and Jota are all good footballers if you can get them on the pitch. You can always find a mug, just like arsenal and munich did with us shifting chamberlain and thiago to us. 

[joe_fishfish]

36 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

Are they all that well paid though? Most of our players come in on much smaller salaries and then get the big money on the 2nd contract. As I say, the example of Keita is a good one. There were offers for them. We just wanted more. In fact the same was true of chamberlain. I think most lads on their first contract with us could find clubs elsewhere in the PL or as seemed possible, the likes of PSG for konate this summer, but it seems we want to roll the dice again. 

 

Pepe left arsenal for free because he's fucking shit at football. You make a fair point about Tierney that he'll see his contract out, but arsenal weren't trying to shift him 2 years ago, they were still trying to magic him onto the pitch - same as we'll be doing with konate this season. My argument for Pepe stands for Drinkwater and Phil Jones too. Chamberlain, keita, thiago, matip, Jones and Jota are all good footballers if you can get them on the pitch. You can always find a mug, just like arsenal and munich did with us shifting chamberlain and thiago to us. 

Thought you mean Phil Jones there, was about to neg.

 

Players with the durability to play 60+ games a season for years on end are getting rarer imo. Definitely becoming an increasingly important to thing to look for in any potential signing.

[Barrington Womble]

11 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

Thought you mean Phil Jones there, was about to neg.

 

Players with the durability to play 60+ games a season for years on end are getting rarer imo. Definitely becoming an increasingly important to thing to look for in any potential signing.

They're getting rarer at Liverpool that's for sure! I'm not sure that's true everywhere else - there seems clubs who do pretty well, clubs who are as bad if not worse than us. And actually if you have a good squad of players who aren't always injured, nobody should be getting near 60 games, because you can manage them. But for me that comes back to needing to buy the right guys, I'm not sure availability is as important to the process as it should be. 

[No2]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

 

Are they all that well paid though? Most of our players come in on much smaller salaries and then get the big money on the 2nd contract. As I say, the example of Keita is a good one. There were offers for them. We just wanted more. In fact the same was true of chamberlain. I think most lads on their first contract with us could find clubs elsewhere in the PL or as seemed possible, the likes of PSG for konate this summer, but it seems we want to roll the dice again. 

 

Pepe left arsenal for free because he's fucking shit at football. You make a fair point about Tierney that he'll see his contract out, but arsenal weren't trying to shift him 2 years ago, they were still trying to magic him onto the pitch - same as we'll be doing with konate this season. My argument for Pepe stands for Drinkwater and Phil Jones too. Chamberlain, keita, thiago, matip, Jones and Jota are all good footballers if you can get them on the pitch. You can always find a mug, just like arsenal and munich did with us shifting chamberlain and thiago to us. 

All the players mentioned above predate Saudi becoming a thing.  I think it's safe to assume less than 10 other clubs paid their players more than we did (City, Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, PSG and maybe Arsenal and Juve on a par). We wouldn't sell to the first three, the 2 Spanish teams wouldn't touch them so the window is so small it barely exists.

 

Harry Maguire is a good example, England regular, frozen out captain of Man Utd and a perfect player for Moyes's West Ham but going rates at both clubs are just too far apart. Maguire needs to take a pay cut, get paid off or hope someone at Bayern is on lsd. Another good example is your man Lavia, only 20 years of age but on a salary incompatible with his output to date. He's probably got a contract worth £50/60m over 7 or 8 years. He's got a choice of sacrificing a large chunk of that to get his career back on track or live his life as non playing football player.

 

The last example I'll use is your very own description of Jones and Jota. Give them one last year to prove they can stay fit, that's literally it right there. People are paid huge amounts to make these decisions, another injury wrecked season for Jota and this time next year there are no takers. Jones won't be that dissimilar. Taking your ruthless approach both should be sold now. I wouldn't be against that idea but the potential is there for that to look a very foolish decision in a couple of years time.

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, No2 said:

All the players mentioned above predate Saudi becoming a thing.  I think it's safe to assume less than 10 other clubs paid their players more than we did (City, Utd, Chelsea, Barcelona, Madrid, Bayern, PSG and maybe Arsenal and Juve on a par). We wouldn't sell to the first three, the 2 Spanish teams wouldn't touch them so the window is so small it barely exists.

 

Harry Maguire is a good example, England regular, frozen out captain of Man Utd and a perfect player for Moyes's West Ham but going rates at both clubs are just too far apart. Maguire needs to take a pay cut, get paid off or hope someone at Bayern is on lsd. Another good example is your man Lavia, only 20 years of age but on a salary incompatible with his output to date. He's probably got a contract worth £50/60m over 7 or 8 years. He's got a choice of sacrificing a large chunk of that to get his career back on track or live his life as non playing football player.

 

The last example I'll use is your very own description of Jones and Jota. Give them one last year to prove they can stay fit, that's literally it right there. People are paid huge amounts to make these decisions, another injury wrecked season for Jota and this time next year there are no takers. Jones won't be that dissimilar. Taking your ruthless approach both should be sold now. I wouldn't be against that idea but the potential is there for that to look a very foolish decision in a couple of years time.

I'd take money for Jota now actually if it was on offer, but there's been no hint of it. I think he has had spells where he can show fitness though. Konate as I say, I'd get rid now and there was interest from PSG. Jones I think as an England lad and probably earning not all that, you'll find another English club for him in 12 months. 

 

I see your point about Maguire. Except they pay him 250k a week or something mental. It was mental when they signed him. We just don't pay those sorts of wages to players who haven't showed it here - the one time we did on thiago, it bit us in the arse. 

 

And for all you say there. We got thiago and chamberlain from those groups of clubs you list. At a time when we were supposed to be the smartest in the world at this shit. There's just no getting away from it, we need to be better at this. 

[Binomial]

Who was the last injury prone player we sold for a decent penny? Ings? & that was after he had a successful loan spell.

 

Agger, Markovic, Lallana, Sturridge, Origi, Ox, Naby, Thiago, Matip. History dictates we're stuck with the likes of Jones, Jota and Ibou. 

 

 

[VladimirIlyich]

3 hours ago, Binomial said:

Who was the last injury prone player we sold for a decent penny? Ings? & that was after he had a successful loan spell.

 

Agger, Markovic, Lallana, Sturridge, Origi, Ox, Naby, Thiago, Matip. History dictates we're stuck with the likes of Jones, Jota and Ibou. 

 

 

The problem with the likes of Jones,Jota and Konate is that they are excellent players with a run of games,but when all taking three or four games to get back to match fitness they look ordinary.

[Scott_M]

Jota back today. 
 

Gravenberch and Konate to join up while in the US as well. 
 

I know players are mandated to a 3 week break, the amount of game time those 3 have had in 2024, I’d have thought they might return early. 
 

Everybody else starting back at Kirkby. 

[Strontium]

They can have their 3 month week break when they suffer their regular season injuries.

[Kevin D]

I’ve moved over to the sell him camp. His injury record is just not acceptable.

[Strontium]

8 minutes ago, Kevin D said:

I’ve moved over to the sell him camp. His injury record is just not acceptable.

 

But if we sold everyone with a poor injury record, we'd not even have enough for a 5-a-side team.

[johnsusername]

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

This is the kind of stuff certain folks said about another fella when the team were playing well.

[3 Stacks]

3 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

This is the kind of stuff certain folks said about another fella when the team were playing well.

Its really not. Last 3 games he has been horrendous. The alternative seems to just be even worse. 

[TheHowieLama]

I know - I remember when Firmino was too. 

[TheHowieLama]

Heck I remember posters talking about Firmino's poor first touch ad nauseum.

[3 Stacks]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Heck I remember posters talking about Firmino's poor first touch ad nauseum.

Yeah, they were morons. 

 

Even if we want to pretend these are Firmino-esque performances, which theyre not, this isnt the same team anymore. We will actually need our centre forwards to be productive. 

[Binomial]

He usually doesn't get up to much when he's not putting the ball in the net so these performances don't surprise me.

 

Never thought his all round forward play was great, and definitely not in a system where he's the lone man trying to occupy 2 physical defenders.

[TheHowieLama]

His movement has been excellent and is creating a bunch of space.

Folks have been doing bits on the telly about it.

[Mook]

Nunez must be turning up pished at training to not be getting a game ahead of Jota at the moment.

 

Guy has been absolutely brutal since the season started.