What's gone wrong defensively?

[Joey8FrogsLegs]

3 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

I don't understand the rationale behind the high line. "Here gentlemen, have an entire half of the pitch to ping balls to fast attackers" doesn't seem like a recipe for defensive solidity. 

It’s a very simple idea, all about compressing and reducing space the opposition get when they’re in posession. Which also makes it less ground for our lads to cover when we press. And we press for two reasons, to deny the opposition time and space to play and to win it back as close to their goal as possible.

 

[Strontium]

Right, but it's not really working, is it.

[Guest Alex_K]

13 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Our midfield is absolutely essential to our defensive setup. You can only get away with playing Salah and Mane as forwards and your full backs as wingers if your midfielders are brilliant at covering for them. Therefore Hendo is the the essential key to our team functioning to level we saw last year. Obviously we need a plan B. Klopp tried 4-2-3-1 to good effect in 2018/19, but has since abandoned it. I think we should really give it another go.

Very similar ailment to City. Thankfully ours isn't rooted in players having left the club / being aged beyond repair. We'll be fine when Thiago/Henderson are back but then Keita's race will pretty much be run. 4 fixtures in which to establish himself early in the season and he's oscillated between average & terrible in terms of the role he is needed to play. To be honest it shows what a sterling job our midfield has done to date playing the role asked of it.

[Barrington Womble]

2 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

I don't understand the rationale behind the high line. "Here gentlemen, have an entire half of the pitch to ping balls to your fast attackers" doesn't seem like a recipe for defensive solidity. 

If you don't have a high line and keep your team compressed, you can't press like we do...or at least supposed to do. If you're going to press teams to their goal line as we do, you accept you'll give up some chances. The problem we've got is Trent is probably our weakest player defensively in the back 4, so will always be targeted and Gomez is massively out of form alongside him and in fact I wonder if he's lost a little touch of pace as he was super fast at the start of the 18/19 season, but while he's not slow, his pace doesn't seem to get him out of trouble as it did before. 

 

I still think concentration is a big part of our problems. Today was set up by carelessness from Adrian, but we learnt very quickly last season not to pass to him because he's shite with his feet, so really I'm not sure why robbo was even passing to him.

[Leyton388]

I think the way we play with pressing so high up and having our defence so high up the pitch we will have freak results once in a blue moon, however the issue tonigjt was that when thr game was lost at 5-1 we were still trying to score as if we could win the game which was a mistake as we should jabe dropped 10 to 15 yards back to our goal and shut up shop. 

 

We continued to play a high line despite the game being gone and we kept paying for it. 

 

On reflection I did speak some absolute shite in the match thread which was down to utter shock of what I was watching. 

 

Its hard to criticise this team considering what it has achieved but we must put this right in the derby. 

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

Right, but it's not really working, is it.

It depends when you look. It's not a coincidence it was at its best against arsenal and Chelsea when we've more focus. It's worked just fine since vvd joined the club.

[Jennings]

It deffo didn't work last night. When it goes well you become champions of everything, when it goes bad you get hammered by Villa.

 

A plan B would have been good last night.

[HolyHank]

A high line is essential when doing gegenpress. Thing is, we have taken it from high line to "both centre halves in the middle of their half, with the full backs up at the corner flags". The main difference last night was that Smith had done his homework. The runners came from behind and thus tricking the offside trap, with our midfield caught upfield, goalhanging. 

 

The fourth goal was something other teams also have tried against us - crossing a free kick wide to a player who doesn't run in behind on the first movement. 

 

Better teams than Villa can do this to us if we keep a high line, but with dropped intensity. 

[VladimirIlyich]

To play a high line you need pressure on the ball to stop the long ball over the top or diagonally. This pressure needs to be applied by the midfielders and,in our case,forwards as well. When this doesn't happen you simply have to drop your defensive line a bit deeper to compensate but we don't seem to do that,which is stupid when you don't have a natural sweeper/keeper. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

Villa pulled our highline pants down yesterday and spanked our arsed. We need to adapt, we should be able to beat most teams without having to use the offside trap as our biggest point of defence. Yesterday was the ultimate warning. A kick to the bollocks warning. 100 percent Everton will try to do exactly what villa did.

[Barrington Womble]

19 minutes ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Villa pulled our highline pants down yesterday and spanked our arsed. We need to adapt, we should be able to beat most teams without having to use the offside trap as our biggest point of defence. Yesterday was the ultimate warning. A kick to the bollocks warning. 100 percent Everton will try to do exactly what villa did.

every team should play an offside trap - or at least should hold a line, otherwise you are going to be constantly exposed regardless of if you're high or deep. We don't hold a high line to catch people offside, we hold a high line to compress the play so we can press, but as there is so much space behind when doing that, we are normally more drilled than most at keeping that line straight. if you want to give up on the high line, we have to give up on just about everything in our play without the ball, something that just a week ago was being pretty broadly called the best in the world. it is absolutely part and parcel of everything we have done under klopp. 

[aws]

When we're up for a game and fully focused, it works really well as has been proven over the last two seasons. But if we're not, we're exposed. 

[Bobby Hundreds]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

every team should play an offside trap - or at least should hold a line, otherwise you are going to be constantly exposed regardless of if you're high or deep. We don't hold a high line to catch people offside, we hold a high line to compress the play so we can press, but as there is so much space behind when doing that, we are normally more drilled than most at keeping that line straight. if you want to give up on the high line, we have to give up on just about everything in our play without the ball, something that just a week ago was being pretty broadly called the best in the world. it is absolutely part and parcel of everything we have done under klopp. 

Adapting when its failing is not a giving up on the philosophy its being pragmatic. Of course we don't change our style of play completely after one game but you recognise when it's gone tits up and change accordingly. Yesterday felt like we were falling for the same joke again and again.

[coachpotato]

The problem as I saw it yesterday was in the ineffectiveness of the press but also giving the ball away.

Teams have set up against us with a view to holding on to the odd chance to break, and usually (I.e. Roma, City) it’s Trent they target because Robbo is the better defensively.

Villa stuck Grealish out there and hit him every time they won, or were given back, the ball.

As soon as that happened they had runners from midfield going into spaces and Grealish was able to find them, or take it on himself.

This has happened before without teams taking advantage through either our defending, Alisson or their wastefulness.

Yesterday Villa took pretty much every chance they could, deflections included, and we had no answer.

It shouldn’t happen again for a very long time, but it’s down to the players to respond and quickly.

 

 

[Aventus]

No good trying to play an offside trap with the entire team in the opposition half. 

[Megadrive Man]

Hopefully Thiago and Henderson will be back for the next game? It should be 3 from Them two, plus Fabinho, Widjnaldum and Milner for the foreseeable future. We need strong leadership and high concentration levels. I would put Joel Matip back in as soon as he's fit again as well.  

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Adapting when its failing is not a giving up on the philosophy its being pragmatic. Of course we don't change our style of play completely after one game but you recognise when it's gone tits up and change accordingly. Yesterday felt like we were falling for the same joke again and again.

We've had countless games where we've been shit but by believing the way we play is the right way and that got us back into the game. So good are we at it, I'd have believed at 5-1 we could still get something out of the game. Our issue yesterday was not systematic, it was loads of players being fucking shit and dropping deeper by 10 yards or something would not have stopped them being fucking shit. Adrian, trent, Gomez, fabinho, keita and firmino out of the starting line up offered pretty much nothing all game and did countless things wrong. Players like Jota, Gini and robbo had pretty poor games but at least did some positive things. You just can't afford that many players being off the pace. 

[Section_31]

The midfield for me. We rely on them to break up a lot of attacks so we can turn the ball back at the opponent quickly, I don't think any of our ball winners have been at the races but Fabinho especially has been shit since last year when he injured himself, what was the injury? I forget, but he's been doing some real clown moves ever since.

[Barrington Womble]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The midfield for me. We rely on them to break up a lot of attacks so we can turn the ball back at the opponent quickly, I don't think any of our ball winners have been at the races but Fabinho especially has been shit since last year when he injured himself, what was the injury? I forget, but he's been doing some real clown moves ever since.

Fabinho's performances go up significantly when Henderson is on the pitch. I'm not sure why, maybe it's the responsibility, but he looks all over the place when Henderson is injured. 

[3 Stacks]

14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Fabinho's performances go up significantly when Henderson is on the pitch. I'm not sure why, maybe it's the responsibility, but he looks all over the place when Henderson is injured. 

Massive part of the defense is covering for Trent on the right. Henderson does it when he's there. When he's not, teams target that side nonstop. You have Keita providing no protection because he's also up the pitch and Fabinho then has to put out fires over there and he's not mobile enough to do it. In a small radius, Fabinho is like the best tackler in the world. In space and when he has to move all over the place, it's ugly. My hypothesis.

[Barrington Womble]

1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

Massive part of the defense is covering for Trent on the right. Henderson does it when he's there. When he's not, you have Keita providing no protection because he's also up the pitch and Fabinho then has to put out fires over there and he's not mobile enough to do it. In a small radius, Fabinho is like the best tackler in the world. In space and when he has to move all over the place, it's ugly. My hypothesis.

Yeah it could be that, keita is a complete passenger defensively . For me that was the problem with the press yesterday. Keita not doing a fucking thing and Jota perhaps not knowing what he's doing. It was just way too easy for them to pass around us. 

[3 Stacks]

9 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Yeah it could be that, keita is a complete passenger defensively . For me that was the problem with the press yesterday. Keita not doing a fucking thing and Jota perhaps not knowing what he's doing. It was just way too easy for them to pass around us. 

We struggle that much more defensively when Henderson isn't there, and I think it's because whether it's Ox or Keita, they just don't have the fitness or instincts to cover for Trent. And then that channel gets completely exposed. I mean, Villa absolutely ravaged our right side, it was unbelievable.

 

The thing with Keita, I'm not making any excuses for him, but I think it's starting to become apparent that he's a bad fit for what our midfield does. When you think of what Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner have done when we're at our best and what their profiles are, it's that they have so much physicality, aggression, athleticism and they're very sound positionally. Defensively, they can cover entire parts of the pitch. Fabinho the middle, the others the sides.

 

Keita is basically this wildcard who dribbles around a lot, who gets forward, who wants to press, but when you play him on the right with Trent, you can't be doing that, you have to basically babysit him. And he's just not right for that role.

[Barrington Womble]

30 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

We struggle that much more defensively when Henderson isn't there, and I think it's because whether it's Ox or Keita, they just don't have the fitness or instincts to cover for Trent. And then that channel gets completely exposed. I mean, Villa absolutely ravaged our right side, it was unbelievable.

 

The thing with Keita, I'm not making any excuses for him, but I think it's starting to become apparent that he's a bad fit for what our midfield does. When you think of what Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum and Milner have done when we're at our best and what their profiles are, it's that they have so much physicality, aggression, athleticism and they're very sound positionally. Defensively, they can cover entire parts of the pitch. Fabinho the middle, the others the sides.

 

Keita is basically this wildcard who dribbles around a lot, who gets forward, who wants to press, but when you play him on the right with Trent, you can't be doing that, you have to basically babysit him. And he's just not right for that role.

he was supposed to be able to do all of those things you are saying he can't. Personally I think it's not a question of a good fit, i think he just doesn't have the quality to play at the level we need. 

[coachpotato]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

he was supposed to be able to do all of those things you are saying he can't. Personally I think it's not a question of a good fit, i think he just doesn't have the quality to play at the level we need. 

I hoped he would prove us all wrong and start becoming the player I thought we were buying, but earlier suspicion that he wasn’t up to the mark are yet to be disproved.

Don’t know how long Klopp will persevere but I hope it’s not too long that it causes damage to our hopes of winning the thing again.

Then again, he might click, can’t see it though.

[Barrington Womble]

3 minutes ago, coachpotato said:

I hoped he would prove us all wrong and start becoming the player I thought we were buying, but earlier suspicion that he wasn’t up to the mark are yet to be disproved.

Don’t know how long Klopp will persevere but I hope it’s not too long that it causes damage to our hopes of winning the thing again.

Then again, he might click, can’t see it though.

Klopp never seems in much of a rush to get rid of anyone. I'm guessing the end of this season is pivotal as i assume he'll be down to 2 years left on his contract. But as we saw with lovren and Ming in the past, it doesn't mean we won't extend the contract.