What's gone wrong defensively?

[Jordy Brouwer]

1 minute ago, joe_fishfish said:

I'm concerned about a few things based on yesterday. First of all, if we're going to play a high line, it has to actually be a line. Too many times Gomez had pushed forward to follow an opponent into midfield and left a big gap next to Van Dijk for someone to run into. That's fine if it's a plan and the full backs are prepared to tuck in to cover, but it wasn't and they didn't. On the occasions Leeds built up out wide instead Gomez would do the opposite and drop two or three yards deeper than Van Dijk, playing people onside who should have been off. Their third goal saw this happening, Gomez is inside our penalty area while Van Dijk is on the edge, and that gave the Leeds player a ton of leeway to time his run.

 

Second the midfield and Trent at the moment do not seem to work hard enough when their press is beaten. Keita is the absolute worst offender for this and has been throughout his time at Liverpool, I actually rate him very highly and want to see him be a bigger part of this side but fucking hell he does himself no favours at all with his lack of effort running back towards his own goal. Henderson and Trent didn't look fit yesterday so can be excused but it needs to improve a lot very quickly if we don't want to come unstuck against Chelsea.

Exactly its weird that everyone including professional pundits have been saying the problem is we hold a high line. That's not a problem its how we have always played under klopp and is a basic part of our counter pressing style. 

 

The problem wasn't that we were holding a high line its that the line we were holding became a dog's dinner. 

[TheHowieLama]

6 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

Too many times Gomez had pushed forward to follow an opponent into midfield and left a big gap next to Van Dijk for someone to run into.

Agree here - no reason to have either of the two CB's up someones ass in the other half of the field.

 

Also - 18 months - hell even 4 months ago we didn't have this - close the mouths guys:

 

 

[aws]

Generally, our intensity dropped significantly after we won the league and yesterday was the first proper game since then.  Specifically, we really miss a fully fit Henderson covering in midfield, Trent's fitness readiness is way off and Fab is having a (not unusual) slow start. Gomez is still young enough to be guilty of fairly frequent misjudgments and Virgil needs to reign in the over-confidence a tad. 

Nothing that time or Jurgen can't fix. 

[Crazy Dave]

Complacency and individual errors. All of the back 4 and Alisson too have switched off since the lockdown. 

 

Its beginning to become a worrying trend though. 

[halewood pete]

Early days guys,it will be sorted.we are the best team in the world 

[Wicket]

3 hours ago, Jordy Brouwer said:

Lol

 

I've never forgotten how great Hypia was. He doesn't get mentioned all that much but what a defender he was. Not up with the true greats like Jockey and Van Dijk but a hell of a player. 

One of my favourite all time players, Sami. The best 2.6million the club ever spent. 

[Kevin D]

6 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Nothing - yet.

Of those fixtures, 7 were after we had won the league and are irrelevant. 2 of the 3 clean sheets highlighted were when there was actually something to play for after the restart (Palace; Everton). It shows we are there - when there is something to play for.

 

The 2 most recent results (Arsenal; Leeds) were either friendlies or with a half fit team (Trent; Henderson; no Fabinho).

 

Chelsea & Atletico were squarely at Adrian's feet -- Atletico particuarly didn't have a look in until his immense fuck up. Watford, well, we know what happened there ..

 

The picture is skewed by the circumstances. See where we are in October.

 

 

I agree.

 

The league title was won on December 26th by any reasonable estimation and definitely won by January 19th at a push.

 

The only match there that was worth anything was the Madrid game, which we should have won but they did a job on us.

 

If Catch22 could see this, he'd be spinning in his statistically signficant grave.

[VladimirIlyich]

Playing the Charity Shield then two internationals before actually kicking a ball in the PL is all kinds of stupid and has hit our backline harder than most. Its going to be a nervy first few games and injuries will definitely play a part.

[Creator Supreme]

Fabinho injured then off form, Gomez believing his own hype, VVD dropping off his usual levels, Trent injured, and Allison not as good since his last injury have all contributed.

 

Lack of decent competition for places hasn't helped!

[Scott_M]

I think we’ve been a bit unlucky as well.

 

Leeds had 3 shots yesterday & they all went in.

 

Arsenal had 1 shot at Wembley & it went in.

 

Newcastle had 1 shot & it went in.

 

Arsenal had 2 shots & they went in.

 

Although we’ve been a bit unlucky, we’ve also got to switch back on & fast. To many individual mistakes.

[VladimirIlyich]

1 minute ago, Scott_M said:

I think we’ve been a bit unlucky as well.

 

Leeds had 3 shots yesterday & they all went in.

 

Arsenal had 1 shot at Wembley & it went in.

 

Newcastle had 1 shot & it went in.

 

Arsenal had 2 shots & they went in.

 

Although we’ve been a bit unlucky, we’ve also got to switch back on & fast. To many individual mistakes.

Sounds like we still have Mignolet in goal.

[niallers]

Could Alison have done better for Leeds opener and did aubamayang curling one past him into the far corner edge him more to the left than normal? Their xg yesterday was 0.3 compared to our 3.12.

That would suggest that at least 2 of their goals should've been saved. His xs in his first season was off the chart but lately,a lot of shots on target seem to be going in.

I understand stats can be deceiving but they can paint a decent general picture

[VladimirIlyich]

6 hours ago, niallers said:

Could Alison have done better for Leeds opener and did aubamayang curling one past him into the far corner edge him more to the left than normal? Their xg yesterday was 0.3 compared to our 3.12.

That would suggest that at least 2 of their goals should've been saved. His xs in his first season was off the chart but lately,a lot of shots on target seem to be going in.

I understand stats can be deceiving but they can paint a decent general picture

Achterberg's influence?

[Barrington Womble]

11 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Sounds like we still have Mignolet in goal.

I think alisson looks flat footed and he's not setting himself quickly enough. It's almost like he's surprised when people get shots off. Without doubt he's not playing at his best level. 

[No2]

I'm not concerned at all. Anything from February to Saturday is irrelevant. Saturday was a rough at times but if every opponent wants to commit 5 or 6 players ahead of the ball then I'll take my chances on out scoring them every time. Especially Chelsea next week, if Frank wants a shoot out bring it on.

 

Souness was spot on after the game, Klopp would have loved that. We got the win but showed enough flaws to tear into them.

[3 Stacks]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2020 at 09:58, joe_fishfish said:

I'm concerned about a few things based on yesterday. First of all, if we're going to play a high line, it has to actually be a line. Too many times Gomez had pushed forward to follow an opponent into midfield and left a big gap next to Van Dijk for someone to run into. That's fine if it's a plan and the full backs are prepared to tuck in to cover, but it wasn't and they didn't. On the occasions Leeds built up out wide instead Gomez would do the opposite and drop two or three yards deeper than Van Dijk, playing people onside who should have been off. Their third goal saw this happening, Gomez is inside our penalty area while Van Dijk is on the edge, and that gave the Leeds player a ton of leeway to time his run.

 

Second the midfield and Trent at the moment do not seem to work hard enough when their press is beaten. Keita is the absolute worst offender for this and has been throughout his time at Liverpool, I actually rate him very highly and want to see him be a bigger part of this side but fucking hell he does himself no favours at all with his lack of effort running back towards his own goal. Henderson and Trent didn't look fit yesterday so can be excused but it needs to improve a lot very quickly if we don't want to come unstuck against Chelsea.

The issue with the high line is if you're gonna do it, you need to win the ball back quickly and consistently and you need to avoid losing it as much as possible. Because if you lose it and don't win it back, you're very vulnerable to the ball in behind right away. And as you said, the line doesn't look mega organized at the minute, so we're not even catching people offside. That's mostly what I think is going on and in the Premier League, teams very much attack that way, going very direct quickly.

[Scott_M]

5 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

The issue with the high line is if you're gonna do it, you need to win the ball back quickly and consistently and you need to avoid losing it as much as possible. Because if you lose it and don't win it back, you're very vulnerable to the ball in behind right away. And as you said, the line doesn't look mega organized at the minute, so we're not even catching people offside. That's mostly what I think is going on and in the Premier League, teams very much attack that way, going very direct quickly.

Yep. As somebody said earlier, although none of the defenders covered themselves in glory, but the worst culprit was Gomez. 
 

IMO, he’s been off it since we won the league and is still looking ropey. Like one of the goal we conceded against Salzburg, he comes out to press / make a tackle to win the ball, doesn’t and then there is a huge gap behind him. 
 

If you’re going to come out like he’s been doing, you’ve got to win the ball or commit a foul, doing neither is just puts us in under serious pressure. 
 

I wouldn’t be against Matip starting on Sunday, but given the pace we’ll be up against, I can see Gomez keeping his place. 

[coachpotato]

A Lack of Concentration and surfeit of physical exertion has cost us conceded goals.

 

Not surprising at all given the intensity over the last three seasons.

 

The quicker it’s sorted out, if indeed it can be regained, the sooner we’ll pull away again.

I’ve no doubt the manager and his team will be working on it and a few changes to confound those coaches who might believe they’ve worked us out.

 

 

 

[Colt Seavers]

For me its lack of a crowd, we thrive off of that and play at 100%, no way Alisson or VVD are as compalcent with a crowd.

 

[Megadrive Man]

Its safe to say we might need a rethink now?

[aRdja]

Our midfield is absolutely essential to our defensive setup. You can only get away with playing Salah and Mane as forwards and your full backs as wingers if your midfielders are brilliant at covering for them. Therefore Hendo is the the essential key to our team functioning to level we saw last year. Obviously we need a plan B. Klopp tried 4-2-3-1 to good effect in 2018/19, but has since abandoned it. I think we should really give it another go.

[3 Stacks]

3 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Our midfield is absolutely essential to our defensive setup. You can only get away with playing Salah and Mane as forwards and your full backs as wingers if your midfielders are brilliant at covering for them. Therefore Hendo is the the essential key to our team functioning to level we saw last year. Obviously we need a plan B. Klopp tried 4-2-3-1 to good effect in 2018/19, but has since abandoned it. I think we should really give it another go.

This is true. Also, if we're to play 4-3-3 and Hendo is not available, his replacement must be Milner or Keita really, really needs to pull the finger out. His defensive cover is just not enough.

 

The Keita thing only works when our pressing is top notch. Today, having him on the right of midfield was tantamount to playing nobody.

[Strontium]

I don't understand the rationale behind the high line. "Here gentlemen, have an entire half of the pitch to ping balls to your fast attackers" doesn't seem like a recipe for defensive solidity. 

[3 Stacks]

2 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

I don't understand the rationale behind the high line. "Here gentlemen, have an entire half of the pitch to ping balls to your fast attackers" doesn't seem like a recipe for defensive solidity. 

If the pressing is good, you can restrict the space and basically pen teams in. 

[an tha]

It is part of trying to squeeze teams and impose ourselves on them.

 

The problem is it needs us to be red hot in our pressing and covering in front of it and then the defenders themselves to be switched on 100%.

 

When like today the midfield is invisible it exposes our defensive line and the space behind it is vulnerable.