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2 hours ago, Arnaud said:

That Argentine team was not average, they were very good actually with great players like Burruchaga, Valdano ...

 

Don't forget Jose Luis Brown. A personal favourite of mine.

 

Ah fuck, I just googled him and he died from Alzheimers a year ago.

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27 minutes ago, Arnaud said:

The most dominant performance at international level from 78 has to be Platini at Euro 84, 9 goals in 5 games. Unreal.

 

Yet some people try and tell me Zidane was better.....

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Messi is probably the most skilful footballer ever but that doesn't make him the best. I've never thought he has the same sheer will to win and refusal to be beaten as the likes of Pele, Diego and Ronaldo. Of course he's won hundreds of games with his ability but I've also seen him shuffling around with that mopey look on his face instead of grabbing a game by the balls. 

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The way he meekly accepted that 8-2 was not becoming of the 'greatest player ever'. My boy Diego would have started a riot rather than just stand around moping like Messi did.

 

Maradona will always be number one for me but I'm not going to argue with anyone who says it's Messi. His career speaks for itself and there's a joy watching him in full flow that you just don't get with, say, Ronaldo. So yeah, the case for Messi being the best ever is really strong.

 

Ronaldo has made the most of the huge talent he has by having an incredibly single minded approach and unmatched attitude when it comes to looking after his body. I don't like him but I've got massive respect for him. Ability wise he's not even on the same planet as Messi so it's a tribute to his mentality that he's even made it a discussion.

 

Messi just has more natural talent than anyone else other than Diego though.

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37 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

Don't forget Jose Luis Brown. A personal favourite of mine.

 

Ah fuck, I just googled him and he died from Alzheimers a year ago.

Brown played in the sexyest team in France, Brest, Brittany.

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37 minutes ago, dave u said:

 

Yet some people try and tell me Zidane was better.....

Zidane’s hair > Platini’s hair 

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9 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Messi scored 4 goals in the 2014 World Cup when Argentina got to the final and lost to Germany.  He won the Golden Ball for best player at the World Cup.

Maradona scored 4 in the 1986 World Cup when Argentina got to the final and beat Germany.  He won the Golden Ball for best player at the World Cup.

 

 

Maradona got 5 goals in 1986, and got better and more dominant as the tournament progressed.

Messi started well in 2014 but was a nervous wreck by the end of it and probably shouldn't have won that golden ball. 

 

I also don't buy that Messi has had poor teammates. Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Zabaltea, Tevez, Dybala off the top of my head over the years. 

But probably would say that he has poor managers internationally, Diego chief among them.

 

I think there is no question that the pressure of world cups gets to him.

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37 minutes ago, KevieG said:

I also don't buy that Messi has had poor teammates. Aguero, Di Maria, Higuain, Mascherano, Zabaltea, Tevez, Dybala off the top of my head over the years. 

But probably would say that he has poor managers internationally, Diego chief among them.

 

I think there is no question that the pressure of world cups gets to him.

All the players you mentioned have been poor for Argentina, bar Mascherano but he's a defender. Not to totally blame Messi's teammates but at both Barcelona these past few years and in Argentina for about the last decade, they've basically let him down. 

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11 minutes ago, joe_fishfish said:

Argentina have had outstanding players during the Messi era but have never had anything like a balanced side on the pitch or a manager capable of putting one together.

 

They actually had a very well-balanced side at the beginning of Messi's international career at the 2006 World Cup, and a capable manager in Pekerman who allowed their attacking talents to flourish in a system that was also tactically sound. I don't know why he took a cautious route against one of the most open German sides in the quarter final. The game went to penalties and Germany's nerve held out (as you'd expect in a shoot-out). They'd been the best side in the tournament up to then.

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1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

All the players you mentioned have been poor for Argentina, bar Mascherano but he's a defender. Not to totally blame Messi's teammates but at both Barcelona these past few years and in Argentina for about the last decade, they've basically let him down. 

They've been poor, him included. He's a player that plays well when the going is easy but when it gets tough he invariably goes missing.

 

Ronaldo had poor players around for Portugal yet won the Euros. He also had arguably lesser players at Madrid and yet left having won 4 CL's in 5 years.

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1 hour ago, 3 Stacks said:

All the players you mentioned have been poor for Argentina, 

Argentina have been crap since Maradona - not a single trophy of any kind (Copa America, Confed, Olympics).

Nothing.

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8 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

They've been poor, him included. He's a player that plays well when the going is easy but when it gets tough he invariably goes missing.

 

Ronaldo had poor players around for Portugal yet won the Euros. He also had arguably lesser players at Madrid and yet left having won 4 CL's in 5 years.

Ronaldo benefited from having competent managers and balanced squads built around his abilities, both at International and club level. You can't say that about Messi. 

 

In any case, Ronaldo winning more trophies doesn't make him a better footballer. Don't see many Scholes>Gerrard arguments around these parts, do you?

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1 minute ago, 3 Stacks said:

Ronaldo benefited from having competent managers and balanced squads built around his abilities, both at International and club level. You can't say that about Messi. 

 

In any case, Ronaldo winning more trophies doesn't make him a better footballer. Don't see many Scholes>Gerrard arguments around these parts, do you?

I don't agree that he had better and more balanced teams. Barcelona are still a very cohesive and balanced side and have won far more league titles while Ronaldo has been at Madrid. 

 

Ronaldo elevated his teammates to greater heights, moreso at international level. That can't be said of Messi. Ronaldo more often than not rises to the big occasions. Even in CL, the number of goals Messi has scored in the knock out stages is vastly inferior to Ronaldo. 

 

Barcelona are much like City, which is understandable as Guardiola has had a big influence, in that they score a shed load of goals against inferior sides, which obviously helps Messi's stats.

 

I am not a  Ronaldo fan by the way.

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If Messi had played in the 1986 World Cup, he would most likely score between 20 - 30 goals in the tournament.

 

Thats the reality, its absolutely pointless to compare fotballers from different eras,  simply because football has developed at the rate it has.


If I remember correctly I think the average distance a football was running during a game in 1985 is only half the distance they cover now.

 

Messi would simply run rings around everyone in 1986.

 

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1 minute ago, Code said:

If Messi had played in the 1986 World Cup, he would most likely score between 20 - 30 goals in the tournament.

 

Thats the reality, its absolutely pointless to compare fotballers from different eras,  simply because football has developed at the rate it has.


If I remember correctly I think the average distance a football was running during a game in 1985 is only half the distance they cover now.

 

Messi would simply run rings around everyone in 1986.

 

His team would have gone out vs Uruguay in the last 16, that was a tough, violent ,  undecided game. He would have hidden all game. 

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8 minutes ago, ManéMan said:

I don't agree that he had better and more balanced teams. Barcelona are still a very cohesive and balanced side and have won far more league titles while Ronaldo has been at Madrid. 

 

Ronaldo elevated his teammates to greater heights, moreso at international level. That can't be said of Messi. Ronaldo more often than not rises to the big occasions. Even in CL, the number of goals Messi has scored in the knock out stages is vastly inferior to Ronaldo. 

 

Barcelona are much like City, which is understandable as Guardiola has had a big influence, in that they score a shed load of goals against inferior sides, which obviously helps Messi's stats.

 

I am not a  Ronaldo fan by the way.

Ronaldo doesn't elevate anything, he's the supreme finisher. The service and the team he had around him at Madrid was second to none. He may have been the difference between winning and not winning a couple big trophies, but the amount he's had on his shoulders pales in comparison to Messi. Messi has had to do everything for Barcelona in the last 5 years. Be the best playmaker and finisher. He's succeeded in doing this partly, but even for him it's too much to ask. 

 

And as for Portugal, they won the Euros playing on the counter, with a low block. It was a managerial masterclass mixed with lots of luck and grit. 

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3 hours ago, dave u said:

Don't know about the rest of you, but I really want this Karsten fella to fail a drugs test just so I can rub it in Frode's face.


Haha I actually went to school with his mum, the boy really is something else though.

 

From Wiki.

2013[edit]

In March, Warholm won eight gold medals in the Norwegian Youth Indoors Championships in 2013.[1] In June at the 2013 Bislett Games, he competed in the 200 m. He finished seventh in his heat with a time of 22.25 s and did not advance to the final. Usain Bolt won the heat with a time of 19.79 s.[2] At the 2013 World Youth Championships in July, he won gold in the boys' octathlon with 6451 points, a personal best.[3]

2014[edit]

In 2014, Warholm competed in the decathlon as well as in specialised events. At the time, his possible future specialization were the long jump, hurdling and 400 metres.[4] His weakest performances in the decathlon were in the throwing events.[5]

In June 2014, Warholm set a Norwegian junior record in the 400 m with a time of 46.31 s.[6]

2015[edit]

In July, he won silver in the 400 m at the 2015 European Junior Championships with a time of 46.50 s, 0.02 s behind Benjamin Lobo Vedel. He also won silver in the decathlon with 7764 points, a personal best.

2016[edit]

In July 2016, while participating in the semi-final of the 400 m hurdles at the 2016 European Championships, he broke the Norwegian national record with a time of 48.84 s.[7] He then finished sixth in the final with a time of 49.82 s. In August, he made it to the semi-finals in the 400 m hurdles at the 2016 Summer Olympics.

2017[edit]

In July 2017, he won gold in the 400 m hurdles at the 2017 European U23 Championships, setting a championship record of 48.37 s. He also won silver in the 400 m with a time of 45.75 s. In August, he won gold in the 400 m hurdles at the 2017 World Championships with a time of 48.35 s.[8] Two weeks after his success at the World Championships, he improved upon his own Norwegian record in the 400 m hurdles with a time of 48.22 s at the 2017 Weltklasse Zürich.[9]

2018[edit]

At the 2018 European Championships Warholm won the gold medal in the 400 metres hurdles event with a time of 47.64 s, setting his new personal best and the new European U23 record.

2019[edit]

In March, Warholm won gold in the 400 m at the 2019 European Athletics Indoor Championships. His time of 45.05 s equalled the European record set by Thomas Schönlebe in 1988.[10] In June, at the Oslo Bislett Games he broke the European men's 400 m hurdles record with a time of 47.33.[11] At the Müller Anniversary Games in July, Warholm improved on his 400 m hurdles time, taking it to 47.12 s.[12] At Weltklasse Zurich in August, Warholm set a new European record in the 400 m hurdles, with a time of 46.92, making him the third person to run under 47 seconds for the distance. He was chased to the finish line by Rai Benjamin, who became the fourth person to break 47 seconds, with a time of 46.98[13] At the 2019 World Athletics Championships in Doha, Qatar, he won the 400 m hurdles in a time of 47.42 seconds, retaining his championship from 2017.[14]

2020[edit]

On June 11th, Warholm competed in the Impossible Games in Bislett Stadion (Oslo, Norway). He ran the 300 metres hurdles with a world best time of 33.78 besting Chris Rawlinson time of 34.48 set in 2002. He also ran a 400 m indoors with a time of 45.97. On August 24th in Stockholm, Warholm ran a personal best of 46.87, missing Kevin Young's world record of 46.78. This was the third performance in history surpassing 47 seconds, and with it Warholm became the first person to break 47 seconds twice.

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5 hours ago, Trumo said:

I don't see the point in arguing which player is better. Both are standard bearers for their respective eras. For what it's worth, I don't think Messi would have been as dominant in Maradona's era, just like I don't think Maradona would have been effective in the current era. The game back then was played at a much slower pace, and teams utilised hatchet men to neutralise their opponents' best players. They were allowed to get away with so much more. The tactics and team set-ups used were different. There is more knowledge and awareness of players now than there was back then. Argentina are fortunate to have had not one but two players of such quality.

 

Another thing I don't get is this view that Argentina in 1986 were a bunch of pub footballers carried by a genius to a World Cup win. Maradona was phenomenal back then, but his supporting cast were clearly strong enough as a unit to do what they did. Argentina at their best have always been this mixture of silk and steel. By saying the other Argentina players were bang-average is to say that all the other players and teams at that tournament were less than that.

 


But this is exactly the problem, Messi would not be Messi from 86, he would be Messi from 2010-2020 compared to Maradona from 1982-1992.

 

 Like Daft Punk said, Messi would simply be harder, better, faster, stronger.

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If we're playing time machines, then a 2020 Diego with the benefit of modern coaching, training and nutrition regimes would be at an even higher level. 

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27 minutes ago, Code said:


Haha I actually went to school with his mum, the boy really is something else though.

 

From Wiki.

2013[edit]

In March, Warholm won eight gold medals in the Norwegian Youth Indoors Championships in 2013.[1] In June at the 2013 Bislett Games, he competed in the 200 m. He finished seventh in his heat with a time of 22.25 s and did not advance to the final. Usain Bolt won the heat with a time of 19.79 s.[2] At the 2013 World Youth Championships in July, he won gold in the boys' octathlon with 6451 points, a personal best.[3]

2014[edit]

In 2014, Warholm competed in the decathlon as well as in specialised events. At the time, his possible future specialization were the long jump, hurdling and 400 metres.[4] His weakest performances in the decathlon were in the throwing events.[5]

In June 2014, Warholm set a Norwegian junior record in the 400 m with a time of 46.31 s.[6]

2015[edit]

In July, he won silver in the 400 m at the 2015 European Junior Championships with a time of 46.50 s, 0.02 s behind Benjamin Lobo Vedel. He also won silver in the decathlon with 7764 points, a personal best.

2016[edit]

In July 2016, while participating in the semi-final of the 400 m hurdles at the 2016 European Championships, he broke the Norwegian national record with a time of 48.84 s.[7] He then finished sixth in the final with a time of 49.82 s. In August, he made it to the semi-finals in the 400 m hurdles at the 2016 Summer Olympics.

2017[edit]

In July 2017, he won gold in the 400 m hurdles at the 2017 European U23 Championships, setting a championship record of 48.37 s. He also won silver in the 400 m with a time of 45.75 s. In August, he won gold in the 400 m hurdles at the 2017 World Championships with a time of 48.35 s.[8] Two weeks after his success at the World Championships, he improved upon his own Norwegian record in the 400 m hurdles with a time of 48.22 s at the 2017 Weltklasse Zürich.[9]

2018[edit]

At the 2018 European Championships Warholm won the gold medal in the 400 metres hurdles event with a time of 47.64 s, setting his new personal best and the new European U23 record.

2019[edit]

In March, Warholm won gold in the 400 m at the 2019 European Athletics Indoor Championships. His time of 45.05 s equalled the European record set by Thomas Schönlebe in 1988.[10] In June, at the Oslo Bislett Games he broke the European men's 400 m hurdles record with a time of 47.33.[11] At the Müller Anniversary Games in July, Warholm improved on his 400 m hurdles time, taking it to 47.12 s.[12] At Weltklasse Zurich in August, Warholm set a new European record in the 400 m hurdles, with a time of 46.92, making him the third person to run under 47 seconds for the distance. He was chased to the finish line by Rai Benjamin, who became the fourth person to break 47 seconds, with a time of 46.98[13] At the 2019 World Athletics Championships in Doha, Qatar, he won the 400 m hurdles in a time of 47.42 seconds, retaining his championship from 2017.[14]

2020[edit]

On June 11th, Warholm competed in the Impossible Games in Bislett Stadion (Oslo, Norway). He ran the 300 metres hurdles with a world best time of 33.78 besting Chris Rawlinson time of 34.48 set in 2002. He also ran a 400 m indoors with a time of 45.97. On August 24th in Stockholm, Warholm ran a personal best of 46.87, missing Kevin Young's world record of 46.78. This was the third performance in history surpassing 47 seconds, and with it Warholm became the first person to break 47 seconds twice.

If he didn't clip the last hurdle last week, he'd be a world record holder. It's coming though. He's incredible. 

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19 minutes ago, aws said:

If we're playing time machines, then a 2020 Diego with the benefit of modern coaching, training and nutrition regimes would be at an even higher level. 

Assuming he has the discipline to stick to these nutrition regimes. 

 

Not something put money on. 

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