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Sugar Ape

Working in an office

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1 minute ago, Lee909 said:

Its not just me, it is litterally millions that will be affected by this

 

Looks at the transport industry, what happens with the likes of London Transport, it will end up decimated if London offices stop being occupied just so office workers can work from home. In small towns it will be the same,bus and train companies will not run unprofitable routes and in some out of the way places that will mean next to no transport for anyone. Its all well and good saying it works on a need basis but what happens when the millions that work in the support areas are out of work?

 

And of course theyll move office jobs, when there is fuck all left for them to save money on it will be the office workers job on the line. Why would they pay you 25-30k a year to do a admin job from your home when they can pay a Indian/Chinese worker half that. If its being done from home then the lower paid office jobs will be moved, why wouldn't they. 

 

 

There are far too many people employed in the various jobs that are kept going by people going to work for it just to shut down. 

This idea that everyone has to adapt to suit office workers not wanting to travel to work is nonsense and from what i have read some people saying and not just on here is just full on 'im alright,its good for me so fuck you" 

 

 

things will change long term but its going to be a fucking mess of the have and have nots and there is going to be fucking millions left on a scrap heap with the retirement age going up and clogging up jobs for younger people to get on the ladder, more automatisation of jobs and more jobs getting moved abroad so companies can save on employment cost.

 

Anyone thinking that will get paid the same to work less is fucking nuts as when have company bosses done anthing that won't save them money to give to shareholders

I’m just about to have my tea but just to answer a couple of points, you say why would they pay you 25k a year to work from home when someone abroad could do the same job, well why would they pay you 25k a year to do the job in an office when they can pay someone abroad to do the same job in an office? If they want that job going abroad they’re going to do it whether you work from home or in an office. 
 

Saying that, absolutely tons of jobs won’t be transferrable abroad. My Sister works for Liverpool city council and liaises with the police over antisocial behaviour and my brother in law is a solicitor for Liverpool city council dealing with education. Do you think they’re going to transfer their jobs to an Indian or Chinese worker? They’ve been working from home all the way through this and that will carry on, to a large extent, when this is over. 
 

This is the part that stands out for me though in your post “decimated if London offices stop being occupied just so office workers can work from home”

 

Why should office workers be forced to commute for hours every day and spend money on commuting when they don’t have to? They are getting paid to do a job not keep the economy going. If they can do that job from home and they, and their employer are happy with that, then that’s the end of it. They aren’t obligated to keep other businesses going. Forcing people to travel to buy things they don’t need any longer isn’t sustainable. 
 

You’re right it’s going to cause a lot of problems with the economy, as will loads of other things, but I think ultimately we’re just going to have to adapt as best we can rather than trying to force things back as they were. 

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21 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

I think I’m right in saying you work as security in an office building? So it’s understandable you are worried about any potential changes. However, businesses aren’t going to keep offices they don’t need just so they can keep other people like facility and security staff employed and businesses local to their offices like coffee shops and dry cleaners or whatever. 
 

Some are going to shut and some will just downsize and others will stay as they were. Other businesses that rely on them are going to have to adapt and change their business plan. They work for the customer, the customer doesn’t work for them. 
 

With regards to all the jobs going abroad I just don’t buy it for one minute. A hard brexit is a bigger threat to those jobs than a move to home working in my view. Though I’m sure the Tory press would be delighted to paint any job losses due to hard Brexit as being due to home working. 
 

The other thing is, if your company wanted to save money and all their staff worked in an office then they would just open an office abroad and staff it there at a fraction of the cost. It makes absolutely no sense to me that they’re happy to pay for office rents and staff in the UK but because the staff can work at home they’ll then suddenly offload all the jobs abroad. Like I said, they’d just move the whole office abroad if they wanted to do that. 

Thinking that office jobs will be treated any differently to manufacturing jobs seems strange to me.  If it can be done in Romania, India or Vietnam for half the price, then why not?

 

There may be a tier of management that for a while is ‘English’ but that will soon disappear too.  
 

I’ve been to outsourced operations in about 7 countries and they all begin to out perform the UK in a couple of years.  Better qualified, more motivated staff.  

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In fact let’s boil it down Lee, do you think if an employer is happy for their staff to work from home, and the employee is happy to work from home then they should be forced (and by who?) to travel into work every day to keep unrelated businesses open?

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1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

Thinking that office jobs will be treated any differently to manufacturing jobs seems strange to me.  If it can be done in Romania, India or Vietnam for half the price, then why not?

 

There may be a tier of management that for a while is ‘English’ but that will soon disappear too.  
 

I’ve been to outsourced operations in about 7 countries and they all begin to out perform the UK in a couple of years.  Better qualified, more motivated staff.  

Right, so why is it the ‘being in the office’ part that is stopping it from being outsourced? Surely they’d just open an office in Romania or Vietnam or wherever if they wanted to. I don’t see why the job is safer just because the employee travels to an office. 

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Just now, Sugar Ape said:

Right, so why is it the ‘being in the office’ part that is stopping it from being outsourced? Surely they’d just open an office in Romania or Vietnam or wherever if they wanted to. I don’t see why the job is safer just because the employee travels to an office. 

It’s a paradigm shift.  This has been the biggest social experiment ever, organisations who thought they needed to see the whites of people’s eyes to ensure that they get stuff done have been proved wrong.  There’s masses of data to prove people work ok remotely.  It’s a tiny step from there to major outsourcing.  

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Being even more crude, if you think an immigrant could do a good job in your company (and why wouldn’t they) what’s to stop the same bloke doing a good job in his home country? 

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2 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s a paradigm shift.  This has been the biggest social experiment ever, organisations who thought they needed to see the whites of people’s eyes to ensure that they get stuff done have been proved wrong.  There’s masses of data to prove people work ok remotely.  It’s a tiny step from there to major outsourcing.  

Maybe, and no doubt some jobs will be outsourced but I don’t see it being anywhere as big a problem as you evidently do. I think it’s much more likely a load of jobs are going to move to Frankfurt or wherever because of hard Brexit rather than home working. 
 

Besides, the experiment has already been done now. Businesses have had their staff working from home for the last six months and will have all the data they need. If they are minded to outsource staff I doubt going back to the office at this point would save it. 

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3 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

If all these multinationals shift all their jobs abroad, how is anyone in this country going to buy the services they provide or the products they sell? 

This

just look at Detriot when you destroy the industry in a state and the effects it has on everyone.

Starts with killing some jobs and the knock on effect fucks everything else up

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10 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

This

just look at Detriot when you destroy the industry in a state and the effects it has on everyone.

Starts with killing some jobs and the knock on effect fucks everything else up

Sorry mate maybe I didn’t make myself clear. We are a massive market for many of these companies. They make massive profits from goods and services sold here, often making higher margins than they do in their home markets. If they shift well paid jobs abroad in their millions to save a few quid, how are the people of this country going to be able to pay for stuff? It sounds as if it could be a massive own goal.

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36 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

Why should office workers be forced to commute for hours every day and spend money on commuting when they don’t have to? They are getting paid to do a job not keep the economy going. If they can do that job from home and they, and their employer are happy with that, then that’s the end of it. They aren’t obligated to keep other businesses going. Forcing people to travel to buy things they don’t need any longer isn’t sustainable. 

This is what it's come down to. The economy collapsing because office workers aren't in town buying soggy sandwiches and posh coffee. Though I imagine it's partly a bluff by the politicians who have vested interests in the commercial property industry (although so do I probably with loads of others via pensions). 

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14 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

Sorry mate maybe I didn’t make myself clear. We are a massive market for many of these companies. They make massive profits from goods and services sold here, often making higher margins than they do in their home markets. If they shift well paid jobs abroad in their millions to save a few quid, how are the people of this country going to be able to pay for stuff?

Because the jobs people will do in 5-10 years haven’t been invented yet. 

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Forget for a minute the rights and wrongs of whether people should be going back to work or not. And the language they’re using below which I’m convinced is going to do the exact opposite of what they want. 


How do they propose everyone should go back anyway with social distancing in place? Best case scenario you’re looking between 25-50% of staff in your office able to go back once you take social distancing into account? Like I said I’ve been wfh but @Stront19m Dog™ has been in and I believe it’s four people to a bank of desks that usually fit eight people on them?
 

Anyway, nice to have The Telegraph, Murdoch and Richard Littlejohn all united. Littlejohn in particular is hilarious. Full disclosure, he’s been working from home for the last 30 years, but that’s ok because he goes the pub and gets pissed now and then. It’s just us oiks who can’t work like he does. 
 

 

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10 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:

How do they propose everyone should go back anyway with social distancing in place? Best case scenario you’re looking between 25-50% of staff in your office able to go back once you take social distancing into account? Like I said I’ve been wfh but @Stront19m Dog™ has been in and I believe it’s four people to a bank of desks that usually fit eight people on them?

 

Yes, that's right, even though desks are pretty well spaced already IMO, we're only using every other desk. Apparently it's better for my health if I'm hot-desking between numerous desks used by different people (I think I'm up to six now) so long as I'm 2 metres away from anyone else, rather than being at my own desk with my own things and "only" being 1.5m from anyone else.

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25 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Yes, that's right, even though desks are pretty well spaced already IMO, we're only using every other desk. Apparently it's better for my health if I'm hot-desking between numerous desks used by different people (I think I'm up to six now) so long as I'm 2 metres away from anyone else, rather than being at my own desk with my own things and "only" being 1.5m from anyone else.

Yeah I’d be a lot more concerned by hot-desking. Surely they can sort out a permanent desk for everyone with loads of the staff wfh. 
 

I hear Perspex screens are being put up imminently so that will be nice. 

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16 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

The other thing is, if your company wanted to save money and all their staff worked in an office then they would just open an office abroad and staff it there at a fraction of the cost. 

As I posted yesterday, furlough and lockdown has opened peoples eyes. My supplier I met yesterday has just realised because of furlough he doesn't need lots of his staff, so he will let some go. I already know of people who have made the same choices of home workers (I am sure we've discussed this before). Once it is seen in a global firm that they don't need people in high cost locations, they won't have them in high cost locations. 

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Things haven't been too bad recently, I'm mostly in the same seat, which is the one adjacent to my actual seat.

 

Am I weird if the idea of Perspex screens horrifies me? Everyone getting their knickers in a twist over the virus, but seemingly unworried by what we're losing in terms of human interaction. I don't want to live in a germ-free bubble like Howard Hughes or some immunodeficient child.

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14 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

Things haven't been too bad recently, I'm mostly in the same seat, which is the one adjacent to my actual seat.

 

Am I weird if the idea of Perspex screens horrifies me? Everyone getting their knickers in a twist over the virus, but seemingly unworried by what we're losing in terms of human interaction. I don't want to live in a germ-free bubble like Howard Hughes or some immunodeficient child.

Saw some clips on the news last week about a restaurant in Japan that had perspex screens. It looked fucking horrendous.

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26 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

As I posted yesterday, furlough and lockdown has opened peoples eyes. My supplier I met yesterday has just realised because of furlough he doesn't need lots of his staff, so he will let some go. I already know of people who have made the same choices of home workers (I am sure we've discussed this before). Once it is seen in a global firm that they don't need people in high cost locations, they won't have them in high cost locations. 

Yeah maybe and we have discussed this before so don’t want to go over old ground, but at this point would going back to the office save those jobs? I said to Rico yesterday that businesses already have the info now on how their staff working from home has affected them. 
 

I also think for a lot of people when they talk about getting back to work they really mean the City of London. Understandably because it’s a fucking huge part of our economy. But personally I’m not really talking about there and big investment banks or whatever. I don’t work there and never will.
 

The biggest office based employer on Merseyside for example I’m pretty sure will be local and then national government. Those jobs won’t be transferred abroad. Possibly some IT roles or something but even then I don’t think they will. I said the other day my laptop broke and I spent a week on fucking Skype calls with someone talking me through fixing it, then he accessed it remotely and couldn’t do it. Then I went to the Capital building on Old Hall St and some nerd fixed it in person in ten minutes. A lot of office jobs, maybe most?, require face to face contact for at least some of the time. For a lot of roles home working is going to work out fine for them. 
 

My brother in law is a solicitor with the local council. He can do most of his work from home and go in the office for any face to face bits he needs to do. His job isn’t getting transferred abroad. I’m sure @Anubis is the same and can work from home some of the time and go in the office for the face to face stuff that is also part of his job. 
 

All these investment bank jobs and the like they’re worried about are surely under threat more from a hard Brexit than home working and the Tories are happy to wave that through so I’m fucked if I’m going to take advice on working at home from them.

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18 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

Things haven't been too bad recently, I'm mostly in the same seat, which is the one adjacent to my actual seat.

 

Am I weird if the idea of Perspex screens horrifies me? Everyone getting their knickers in a twist over the virus, but seemingly unworried by what we're losing in terms of human interaction. I don't want to live in a germ-free bubble like Howard Hughes or some immunodeficient child.

Yeah I’m not keen on that at all. I’m not sure if they’re putting them up because they think it makes things safer or because they feel they can fit more people to a desk if they’re in place. Either way it’s not going to be nice sitting behind them. 

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15 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

Things haven't been too bad recently, I'm mostly in the same seat, which is the one adjacent to my actual seat.

 

Am I weird if the idea of Perspex screens horrifies me? Everyone getting their knickers in a twist over the virus, but seemingly unworried by what we're losing in terms of human interaction. I don't want to live in a germ-free bubble like Howard Hughes or some immunodeficient child.

i have been in a few places with screens and i don't like it either. but i think it is all about balance and making as many people as possible feel comfortable in their surroundings. right now i am choosing to see these things (screens, masks, can't stand in a pub or whatever) as short term bumps on our path to getting our lives back together. rather than the idea of this being the new normal, i prefer to see it as the temporary normal (which by the way pretty much means it's not normal at all). one way or another, we will get on top of the virus - if that is by vaccine, treatments that make it less lethal or real time testing as you leave your house of a morning. So this is just for now, the screens are a stepping stone to life resuming as normal. 

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22 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

Yeah maybe and we have discussed this before so don’t want to go over old ground, but at this point would going back to the office save those jobs? I said to Rico yesterday that businesses already have the info now on how their staff working from home has affected them. 
 

I also think for a lot of people when they talk about getting back to work they really mean the City of London. Understandably because it’s a fucking huge part of our economy. But personally I’m not really talking about there and big investment banks or whatever. I don’t work there and never will.
 

The biggest office based employer on Merseyside for example I’m pretty sure will be local and then national government. Those jobs won’t be transferred abroad. Possibly some IT roles or something but even then I don’t think they will. I said the other day my laptop broke and I spent a week on fucking Skype calls with someone talking me through fixing it, then he accessed it remotely and couldn’t do it.  Then I went to the Capital building on Old Hall St and some nerd fixed it in person in ten minutes. A lot of office jobs, maybe most?, require face to face contact for at least some of the time. For a lot of roles home working is going to work out fine for them. 
 

My brother in law is a solicitor with the local council. He can do most of his work from home and go in the office for any face to face bits he needs to do. His job isn’t getting transferred abroad. I’m sure @Anubis is the same and can work from home some of the time and go in the office for the face to face stuff that is also part of his job. 
 

All these investment bank jobs and the like they’re worried about are surely under threat more from a hard Brexit than home working and the Tories are happy to wave that through so I’m fucked if I’m going to take advice on working at home from them.

so my experience is certainly part of the city community, but includes tech firms that serve it. So the supplier i met yesterday for example actually in the main make their money out of providing IT solutions for universities. He has moved jobs to india, he is getting rid of some others. He is reshaping. And you're right, loads of jobs in liverpool from an office perspective probably are government based ones. That's not true in manchester, leeds and birmingham. Our council has had virtually no success in attracting business too it so we have an economy that is based out of govermnent and hospitality.

 

So sure, there's government jobs. And we have a tory government who will happily get rid of as many government jobs as they can to save money - and if the city or other verticals fall to bits, the economy will be on it's arse for a long time and all they will want to do is cut government jobs. Liverpool will be 1st in line, make no doubt about that. 

 

you make a good point about is it already too late and I think for sure it is for some. But I think blue chip level corporations have made this period a "just get through it". And there are loads of people holding and not quite sure what the future holds for us and how firms will change once people start to get back to the office and other environments. So for me, there is still chance to change perceptions. I think people are generally more creative in business when they work in groups. I think being in a competitive environment pushes people. And we learn from each other every single day we go to work. I think that breaks down in the main over skype - it just isn't the same. It's why prior to this pandemic even companies like google still have enormous hubs for people to work with when they've had the most advanced technology to allow working from home. Ultimately I think businesses that think they can be operated from spare bedrooms around the world will have it wrong. I am not saying some can't benefit, but I think in the main it is simply not true. What I don't want is by the time the world economy has realised that, the whole world has packed up and left the UK - as we have already seen when we pretty much shut down manufacturing in the 80s, it is pretty hard to rebuild that. 

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