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1 hour ago, Rushies tash said:

I suppose at least Rico is upfront about the selfish reasons he currently votes Tory, however much you could argue the toss about it. What I really can't stand are the working class Tories by me who literally vote against their own interests. Or to put it more accurately, they vote 'not Labour' because of the shit they read in our favourite tabloid.

But why is it wrong to vote Tory for selfish reasons, but voting Labour for selfish reasons (not voting "against their own interests") is OK?

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1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

What a pathetic, ridiculous, stupid reply. Come on Gnasher. Fuck Brexit and fuck anyone who agrees with it. 

Why is it? The eu is basically a tory lite organisation which every great political figure of the past opposed. Benn, Foot, Beven, Atlee. You approach it in simplistic yea/nay terms. I prefer to call out the flaws in both sides. 

 

Anyway i'll leave that for the other fred.

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7 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

But that’s the point, I do own the consequences.  I’ve been absolutely clear and consistent for years.  
 

You voted for a war criminal who caused the death of over a million people and created ISIS.   How do you live with that? 

 

I’m also sure that other parties have polices that would ‘save’ more people than Labour. So you aren’t doing the best you could.  

Yeah,the Greens do but they dont have the financial backing or exposure to ever get themselves elected. As for Tony Blair,we've all called him out for his war crimes but even a cunt like him created a minimum wage and got loads of working class kids through universities,for example. Not him personall of course but enough of his elected MPs had a bit of concern for the poorer members of the country. There werent even any food banks due to things like family credit and Educational Maintenance Allowance. The tories take the meaning of the word 'cunt' to a whole new plane.

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14 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

But that’s the point, I do own the consequences.  I’ve been absolutely clear and consistent for years.  
 

You voted for a war criminal who caused the death of over a million people and created ISIS.   How do you live with that? 

 

I’m also sure that other parties have polices that would ‘save’ more people than Labour. So you aren’t doing the best you could.  

Arent ISIS just a group of extremists born from Al Qaeda,who were CIA trained? I dont think Blair created them but his siding with Bush Jr did consolidate many Muslim splinter groups which led to them uniting because of those policies.

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

It’s funny when there’s an election and the general feeling is anyone voting conservative should be hung from a lamppost.  Or people say they won’t have a pint with someone who votes differently. That’s normal. 

You're wasting your time here Rico. It used to be that who you voted for was your own business. Now it has to be the defining factor of your character. These can't separate the person from the politics.

 

If you think someone should be a social pariah and ostracized because of their political views (with obvious caveats regarding extremism and the like), then you're a fucking cunt.

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20 minutes ago, SasaS said:

But why is it wrong to vote Tory for selfish reasons, but voting Labour for selfish reasons (not voting "against their own interests") is OK?

I didn't say he was wrong.

 

I don't know the lad, but Rico seems to make informed decisions, whether or not I agree with them is neither here nor there. My post referred to the people near me who vote the way they do because they saw a meme about Diane Abbott. They're the ones who piss me off.

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14 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

But that’s the point, I do own the consequences.  I’ve been absolutely clear and consistent for years.  
 

You voted for a war criminal who caused the death of over a million people and created ISIS.   How do you live with that? 

 

I’m also sure that other parties have polices that would ‘save’ more people than Labour. So you aren’t doing the best you could.  

I never voted for Tony Blair.  I mean, obviously I don't live in Sedgefield, but during the New Labour years I tended to vote for the candidate who best matched my views: generally, someone redder or greener than New Labour. That was a luxury I had in a solid Labour constituency. 

 

In any case, even New Labour never had a manifesto saying "vote for us and we'll join in with US war crimes". It's a bit of a stretch to argue that anyone who voted New Labour was voting for those atrocities (rather than, for example, the Tories who also supported those atrocities, but would have fucked over people in the UK too). When you voted Tory - or when anyone now votes Tory - they do so knowing that the party is proud of cutting the kind of services that save lives and is proud of the gratuitous cruelty which costs the lives of refugees and asylum seekers. They wear their lack of compassion and basic human decency as a badge of "toughness". You know this. More to the point, you knew it before you chose to vote for them.

 

There may be other parties who claim to be more committed to the kind of policies that save lives than Labour are, but they've got no chance of getting enough MPs to form an effective opposition, let alone a Government. 

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22 minutes ago, SasaS said:

But why is it wrong to vote Tory for selfish reasons, but voting Labour for selfish reasons (not voting "against their own interests") is OK?

Because when you vote Tory for selfish reasons, people worse-off than you suffer. You (hope to) improve your finances by making poorer people destitute.

 

When working-class people vote Labour in their own self interest (for selfish reasons, if you like) people worse-off benefit more. You improve your finances by being part of a larger group sharing the prosperity.

 

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18 minutes ago, General Dryness said:

You're wasting your time here Rico. It used to be that who you voted for was your own business. Now it has to be the defining factor of your character. These can't separate the person from the politics.

 

If you think someone should be a social pariah and ostracized because of their political views (with obvious caveats regarding extremism and the like), then you're a fucking cunt.

If the way you vote is unrelated to the type of person you are, you're doing it wrong. The bottom line is that (provided you're not voting for whoever dresses best or has the nicest face) your political choice is a moral choice; and your morals are fundamental to who you are. 

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24 minutes ago, General Dryness said:

You're wasting your time here Rico. It used to be that who you voted for was your own business. Now it has to be the defining factor of your character. These can't separate the person from the politics.

 

If you think someone should be a social pariah and ostracized because of their political views (with obvious caveats regarding extremism and the like), then you're a fucking cunt.

Err no one forced him to reveal his stupid right wing political beliefs, he's managed to do it on numerous occasions all by himself. Its a discussion forum so these things sometimes get discussed.

 

Anyway here's a bit of mellow mood music to whistle to.

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

If the way you vote is unrelated to the type of person you are, you're doing it wrong. The bottom line is that (provided you're not voting for whoever dresses best or has the nicest face) your political choice is a moral choice; and your morals are fundamental to who you are. 

But they're not the whole picture.

 

No skin off my nose, but you could be missing out on some productive interactions with some really sound people who just happen to think differently to you. And that's just sad. 

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30 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Err no one forced him to reveal his stupid right wing political beliefs, he's managed to do it on numerous occasions all by himself. Its a discussion forum so these things sometimes get discussed.

 

Anyway here's a bit of mellow mood music to whistle to.

 

 

 

Loads of people have you on ignore because you're mental.

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8 hours ago, General Dryness said:

You're wasting your time here Rico. It used to be that who you voted for was your own business. Now it has to be the defining factor of your character. These can't separate the person from the politics.

 

If you think someone should be a social pariah and ostracized because of their political views (with obvious caveats regarding extremism and the like), then you're a fucking cunt.

Sometimes you have to look at why people say certain things rather than just take it at face value.

 

You can go on Facebook and see "fucking coming over here on their shit boats, then geting top notch hotels, send em back!" Or you can come on here and read "racist enabling prick" or  "fascist!" or "tory cunt".

 

You need to look at why Wayne from Essex or the poster from here decides to spout this. Its often to appeal to the people they want to impress rather than the people they are attacking. Its the playground behaviour of wanting to be popular with the prevailing view of those around them. Thats why the "leftie of the week" idea was genius, it highlighted such behaviour.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Rico1304 said:

Well I’ll politely disagree on the first bit. But agree on the second part. The left believes they are ‘right’ and anyone who disagrees is wrong, and therefore bad. Imagine being that arrogant?  

 

This happens equally on both sides. The right characterise the left as insane. Polarisation leaves no middle ground therefore THEM LOT OVER THERE are ridiculous.

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9 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Because when you vote Tory for selfish reasons, people worse-off than you suffer. You (hope to) improve your finances by making poorer people destitute.

 

When working-class people vote Labour in their own self interest (for selfish reasons, if you like) people worse-off benefit more. You improve your finances by being part of a larger group sharing the prosperity.

 

But that’s my point, by your logic someone who votes Tory is bad.  So, for example a woman who votes Tory in a Labour stronghold seat say because she thinks it’ll be better for her small business, who is active in a charity, does loads of voluntary work and makes a difference to her community is ‘worse’than a criminal who votes Labour.  It’s mental. 

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23 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

But that’s my point, by your logic someone who votes Tory is bad.  So, for example a woman who votes Tory in a Labour stronghold seat say because she thinks it’ll be better for her small business, who is active in a charity, does loads of voluntary work and makes a difference to her community is ‘worse’than a criminal who votes Labour.  It’s mental. 

Making shit up and indulging in some faux pearl-clutching about it. Again. It's mental.

 

That example is not what I'm saying at all.  It was a specific question about voting, so I answered it. A person's political beliefs should stem from their morals and should be reflected in their vote; that's not to say that a person's vote is the be all and end all of who they are. People often vote not only against their interests, but even against their beliefs.  (For example, you voted for the only party that would bounce the UK out of the EU.)  People are more complicated than that, as exemplified by the hypothetical person you've just mentioned, the real-life person I mentioned before or the Tory voters of Guildford questioned by Giles Brandreth in 2015 (who all agreed with a raft of "left-wing" policies, but ran screaming into denial when told that they agreed with Jeremy Corbyn).

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10 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

If the way you vote is unrelated to the type of person you are, you're doing it wrong. The bottom line is that (provided you're not voting for whoever dresses best or has the nicest face) your political choice is a moral choice; and your morals are fundamental to who you are. 

I always thought it was ideological or to a point part of inherited identity. For (a simplistic) example, you may think that privatization works better than nationalization and it will benefit the general society. Or that lower taxes are better than higher taxes. First is hardly a moral choice, second can be, but is also part of an economic argument.


By making an ideological choice a moral choice, which I have noticed is routine in British political culture, you exclude the other side, or sides from the conversation because they are simply "immoral". On a personal level, it would be hard for me to differentiate between people I know on political grounds in terms of "morality", they are all equally intolerant of other views and I'd say even social snobbery is evenly distributed, only manifests itself differently.  

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Ideology without any moral consideration is meaningless; it's just wearing a badge. Economic leanings (such as whether you favour nationalisation or privatisation) have to be driven by what you're hoping to achieve for society: if you have an idea of what you think a "good society" is, then the means to attain that are a secondary consideration, so it's a mistake to get wedded to them.

 

Not sure I'm making myself clear here.

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