Best Managers of the Premier League Era

[Ron B]

1 hour ago, Alex_K said:

Yes recruitment was his defining quality until it fell of a cliff in the early 10s. Ferguson is probably pretty under-rated for his game management / tactical nous.

Wenger made 2 CL semi finals in 19 attempts, w. 1 of those reaching the final. Ferguson made 7 semi finals in the same number of tries, w. 4 finals and 2 wins. Big gap. Our record vs. number of attempts is unparalleld.

Would be interesting to hear continental fans' perception of Wenger. Left in the shade by the great German (Heynckes; Hitzfeld) & Italian (Lippi; Ancelloti; Capello) managers of his time.

Wenger is highly rated abroad, albeit seen as yesterday’s man (or the day before yesterday really). He could have gone to Barcelona or Real during his Arsenal days, was previously courted by Bayern too. Won titles in France and Japan. And wasn’t there something about his being shortlisted as a potential Ferguson replacement at Man Utd?
 

His legacy is tainted by loyalty really - if he’d left Arsenal before they started pouring money into the stadium rather than the team then he would have had a good shot at winning more trophies before he retired. Other than a bunch of FA Cups at the very end of course. 

[aws]

Close call between Rafa and Jurgen. 

[Bjornebye]

10 minutes ago, aws said:

Close call between Rafa and Jurgen. 

 

 

[TheHowieLama]

30 minutes ago, aws said:

Close call between Rafa and Jurgen. 

Jurgen a far better league manager - Rafa shone in Europe.

[VladimirIlyich]

9 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Mourinho was far worse than fair to middling at United. Blew up the spend (370+ mil), blew up the wage bill, isolated the squad .. for what? Topping out at an 81 point season and a Europa League via knockout matches of Rostov/Anderlecht/Celta Vigo/Ajax. Klopp & Mourinho respective performances over past 5 years have been absolutely light years apart.

 

Wenger also doesn't merit inclusion with some of the other names. Just didn't do it in Europe. 22 years and .. one Uefa Cup final, one CL final and no victories? Way more thrashings and embarassments in European competition for them than highlights. Doesn't hold weight with Klopp/Guardiola/Mourinho/Ferguson.

Wenger merits inclusion because he was the only one to compete with the first open cheque book club in Man Utd and their ability to absolutely gazump the transfer market. He transformed Arsenal into a proper club and calling him on his European record is harsh given United's relatively  poor return on being so dominant and being richer than anybody in England,and almost the world for around two decades. 

[3 Stacks]

Ferguson, Wenger and Klopp are the defining managers of the Premier League era, imo. Transformed mediocre/average clubs before their reigns into their image. They built the plane, as well as flew it. Mourinho and Pep have to be mentioned because they win, but they fly the G6 and then get off and go fly another one. 

[Guest Alex_K]

28 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Wenger merits inclusion because he was the only one to compete with the first open cheque book club in Man Utd and their ability to absolutely gazump the transfer market. He transformed Arsenal into a proper club and calling him on his European record is harsh given United's relatively  poor return on being so dominant and being richer than anybody in England,and almost the world for around two decades. 

Not sure would describe United 90s side as an open cheque book club (we spent a lot ourselves - maybe morw). First few years of Wenger's time there Arsenal spent v competitively .. maybe actually outspent United. Wasn't really until the Yorke/Stam signings in 99 that United spent really big (Andy Cole aside). Bergkamp, Overmars Viera were as big as any signings United made during the period. Wenger's Arsenal were only really competitive with United in a couple of seasons out of the 15 or so that followed (clearly 02-04 was the golden period).

 

Its pretty revisionist to say that Wenger transformed Arsenal into a proper club .. they won their only proper European trophy in their history a couple of years before he arrived and won 2 league titles in the 8 years before he arrived compared with 3 in the 25 years since. He changed the style of the club, but in terms of trophies they had won everything he won and more in the decade before he joined. Arsenal were already a big club.

[Tj hooker]

10 hours ago, ZonkoVille77 said:

Pardew 

Kinnear 

Hughes 

You forgot the Owl 

[SlugTrail]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Jurgen a far better league manager - Rafa shone in Europe.

 

[SlugTrail]

32 minutes ago, Tj hooker said:

You forgot the Owl 

I dont care if it's a joke, I fucking despise that man.

[KMD7]

23 minutes ago, SlugTrail said:

I dont care if it's a joke, I fucking despise that man.

Who, this fella?

[Grinch]

28 minutes ago, SlugTrail said:

 

 

Indeed, Jurgen's managed to outshine him in Europe and all.

[an tha]

He came so close....

 

[TheHowieLama]

3 hours ago, SlugTrail said:

 

Points baby, points. 

 

 

[Bobby Hundreds]

11 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Not sure would describe United 90s side as an open cheque book club (we spent a lot ourselves - maybe morw). First few years of Wenger's time there Arsenal spent v competitively .. maybe actually outspent United. Wasn't really until the Yorke/Stam signings in 99 that United spent really big (Andy Cole aside). Bergkamp, Overmars Viera were as big as any signings United made during the period. Wenger's Arsenal were only really competitive with United in a couple of seasons out of the 15 or so that followed (clearly 02-04 was the golden period).

 

Its pretty revisionist to say that Wenger transformed Arsenal into a proper club .. they won their only proper European trophy in their history a couple of years before he arrived and won 2 league titles in the 8 years before he arrived compared with 3 in the 25 years since. He changed the style of the club, but in terms of trophies they had won everything he won and more in the decade before he joined. Arsenal were already a big club.

Wasn't United's first prem title with the most expensive side ever created. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Once you've built that top side it's not building side after side it's a case of replacing the odd player with top class players. Being good becomes  less expensive, at least then it did before players played well for one season and then demand 150 grand a week.

 

Anyway in the premier league era Ferguson stands alone at the top, I'd have to put Mourinho next purely because of how good that chelsea side where even though he's a cheque book manager. Wenger for longevity, consistency, good football, 3 titles and decent success but a joke in Europe. Other fans may say Klopp hasn't been here long enough but we were getting pumped by stoke 6-1. We were flimsy reliant on the odd great player to drag us out the shit always. Klopp came in and built a team, top 4 consistently, UEFA cup final, 2 champions league finals winning one, runners up on 97 points and this year before the pandemic the biggest ever points lead in football history at this point of the season, playing great football, probably going to win our first title after 30 years of trying and doing it all with money the club has earnt as a business not because of an oligarch or an oil state. He's done it against a man city side that got 100 points the year before 90 odd before that through conning financial fair play. No side in this country has ever had a rival for success so financially roided up and with who is considered by some the greatest manager ever managing them. Yet klopp has took that challenge on, with charisma, good humour and you can see a genuine love of football and working with Footballers, all players would love to play for him. He's ace and brilliant at his Job.

 

Yes I'm 100 percent biased as fuck. It's a Liverpool site.

 

[Guest Alex_K]

1 hour ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Wasn't United's first prem title with the most expensive side ever created. I'm sure I read that somewhere. Once you've built that top side it's not building side after side it's a case of replacing the odd player with top class players. Being good becomes  less expensive, at least then it did before players played well for one season and then demand 150 grand a week.

Hmm not sure this was true. I mean for context, we spent almost twice as much on Paul Stewart as United did on Cantona. Saunders cost us more than Hughes. Mark Wright cost us more than Pallister. Julian Dicks cost more than Irwin, Schmeichel & Kanchelskis combined. The youth players they had cost them nothing (Scholes, Giggs, Butt, Beckham, the Nevilles). In some respects their early success was put together in a similar way as Klopp has ours, with some very savvy transfers & all the big transfers going perfectly (Cole; Keane). By the time the late 99/00s rolled around they started to spend bigger than everyone else (Ferdinand, Veron etc) until they were outstripped in the mid 00s by Chelsea. But the team Wenger won his first title off wasn't really a big spending one. If anyone was the embarassing spenders of the 90s it was us.

 

I don't think the rest of your post is biased at all. Klopp did more in 2 Champions League campaigns than Wenger did in 20. Add his success with Dortmund and its an absolute no-contest. The resources at both managers disposal were no different at all. At the moment I'd also rank Ferguson>Mourinho ... Klopp>Guardiola ... Wenger. Mourinho more for the breadth of success rather than achievements at any one club. But Mourinho was most effective in the mid-00s (thank god we stopped that Chelsea side winning the European Cup) and has been downhill ever since whereas Klopp is in ascendancy.

[VladimirIlyich]

Wenger qualified for the CL for 21 consecutive years at Arsenal,that record is far from a poor one in Europe. He was a superb manager in the PL era and among the best.

[Guest Alex_K]

9 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Wenger qualified for the CL for 21 consecutive years at Arsenal,that record is far from a poor one in Europe

I'm sure you can do better than that. Qualifying for European competition domestically ≠ excelling in European competition.

[Tony Moanero]

Worth noting that Wegner won the league and FA Cup double twice in five seasons.

[Ron B]

3 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Hmm not sure this was true. I mean for context, we spent almost twice as much on Paul Stewart as United did on Cantona. Saunders cost us more than Hughes. Mark Wright cost us more than Pallister. Julian Dicks cost more than Irwin, Schmeichel & Kanchelskis combined. The youth players they had cost them nothing (Scholes, Giggs, Butt, Beckham, the Nevilles). In some respects their early success was put together in a similar way as Klopp has ours, with some very savvy transfers & all the big transfers going perfectly (Cole; Keane).

You make a good argument, but what Bobby Hundreds says about Man Utd’s first Prem title is spot on. They had a more expensive side - the most expensive in English football history at the time. 

 
Manchester United’s first XI:

Schmeicel £500,000

Parker £2m

Irwin £625,000

Bruce £800,000

Pallister £2.3m

Sharpe £200,000

Ince £1m

McClair £850,000

Giggs (Youth product)

Cantona £1.2m

Hughes £1.8m

Total: £11,275m

Liverpool that same season:

James £1.25m

Jones £300,000

Burrows £550,000

Nicol £300,000

Wright £2.2m

McManaman (Youth product)

Redknapp £350,000

Barnes £900,000

Hutchison £175,000

Walters £1.25m

Rush £2.8m

Total: 9.975m
 

Obviously you can argue about who had who on the bench (Stewart was not a first team regular even in his first season, but then they had expensive signings like Danny Wallace, Neil Webb, Mike Phelan, and Dion Dublin barely appearing). 

[Guest Alex_K]

1 hour ago, Ron B said:

You make a good argument, but what Bobby Hundreds says about Man Utd’s first Prem title is spot on. They had a more expensive side - the most expensive in English football history at the time. 

 
Manchester United’s first XI:

Schmeicel £500,000

Parker £2m

Irwin £625,000

Bruce £800,000

Pallister £2.3m

Sharpe £200,000

Ince £1m

McClair £850,000

Giggs (Youth product)

Cantona £1.2m

Hughes £1.8m

Total: £11,275m

Liverpool that same season:

James £1.25m

Jones £300,000

Burrows £550,000

Nicol £300,000

Wright £2.2m

McManaman (Youth product)

Redknapp £350,000

Barnes £900,000

Hutchison £175,000

Walters £1.25m

Rush £2.8m

Total: 9.975m
 

Obviously you can argue about who had who on the bench (Stewart was not a first team regular even in his first season, but then they had expensive signings like Danny Wallace, Neil Webb, Mike Phelan, and Dion Dublin barely appearing). 

Lots of good info there - thanks for posting. Worth nothing that the "less expensive" elements of our side though were mostly products of the 80s (Barnes; Nicol; Burrows) with some much more expensive players as you say not making the team (Thomas; Bjornebye - even Piechnik who cost more than Burrows, Jones and Nicol if you can believe it!). Of course United had some players like Dublin as you say filling out the squad too, but overall spending wasn't too dissimilar. Results however were very different - we got, what, back-to-back 6th place finishes while they had 2nd/1st over those early 90s seasons? They then pushed on through the rest of the decade while the more we spent, the further we fell behind.

 

This is all a bit of a digression from the topic admittedly .. but in essence I don't think its fair to call United/Ferguson a cheque book club in the 90s esp. when you look at the cost of their most effective signings .. just as I wouldn't call Klopp a cheque book manager based on the Alisson/Van Dijk signings. Arguably United have been a bigger cheque book club in the 2010s, with far less to show for it!

[VladimirIlyich]

20 hours ago, Alex_K said:

I'm sure you can do better than that. Qualifying for European competition domestically ≠ excelling in European competition.

When Klopp arrived we espoused constantly the need to qualify for the CL to maintain our seat at the big table and generating cash for us to compete for better players and play in the Premier European club competition,Wenger did that for 21 seasons straight and competed with United while doing it. Even we have only just started competing in the CL regularly in the last few seasons.

[Guest Alex_K]

4 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

When Klopp arrived we espoused constantly the need to qualify for the CL to maintain our seat at the big table and generating cash for us to compete for better players and play in the Premier European club competition,Wenger did that for 21 seasons straight and competed with United while doing it. Even we have only just started competing in the CL regularly in the last few seasons.

Sure - but I think you're missing the distinction between domestic & European performance.

[LFC 6 Times]

Ferguson, Klopp, Wenger, Mourinho and Pep.

[VladimirIlyich]

22 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Sure - but I think you're missing the distinction between domestic & European performance.

Arsenal weren't good enough to win the CL but a final and consistent top four finishes,including a few wins, are a major achievement however you look at it. Only us,Chelsea and United have won the CL in the modern era and Arsenal haven't had the same budget as United or Chelsea. I'm not sure why are denegrating Wenger when we are speaking about the PL era,he's been up there with the best so far.