Best Managers of the Premier League Era

[Guest Alex_K]

2 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I'm not sure why are denegrating Wenger when we are speaking about the PL era,he's been up there with the best so far. 

Not denegrating -- drawing distinction between the great and the best. There are always levels to the game. Wenger's pretty ineffectual performance for 20 years in European competition puts him squarely below Klopp/Mourinho/Guardiola/Ferguson in my opinion because of it. Great manager clearly in his time but everyone can't be the best - its a self-defeating description otherwise. He didn't make it to the absolute top with the others.

[VladimirIlyich]

21 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Not denegrating -- drawing distinction between the great and the best. There are always levels to the game. Wenger's pretty ineffectual performance for 20 years in European competition puts him squarely below Klopp/Mourinho/Guardiola/Ferguson in my opinion because of it. Great manager clearly in his time but everyone can't be the best - its a self-defeating description otherwise. He didn't make it to the absolute top with the others.

Nobody mentioned 'great' the thread was 'best of Premier League era' therefore pertaining to the Premier League. I'd put Wenger on par with Mourinho(in the PL) given how much Mourinho was given to spend at his PL jobs. If Wenger had those budgets I believe he'd have done equally as well. Wenger was too loyal,which should really be a positive but probably cost him status and trophies too.

[aws]

If we're just talking Premiership then I'd put Wenger on a par with Ferguson and well ahead of Mourinho. You have to take resources into account.  For the same reason I don't really rate Pep's achievements. 

[Guest Alex_K]

4 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Nobody mentioned 'great' the thread was 'best of Premier League era' therefore pertaining to the Premier League. I'd put Wenger on par with Mourinho(in the PL) given how much Mourinho was given to spend at his PL jobs. If Wenger had those budgets I believe he'd have done equally as well. Wenger was too loyal,which should really be a positive but probably cost him status and trophies too.

Bit of a boring conversation now arguing word semantics on a Saturday but while I'm online you have made my exact point for me  .. best refers to being of the 'singular highest quality' ... great refers to being 'considerably above average'. Two different debates.

 

1 hour ago, aws said:

If we're just talking Premiership then I'd put Wenger on a par with Ferguson and well ahead of Mourinho. You have to take resources into account.  For the same reason I don't really rate Pep's achievements. 

 

If you asked me in 2009 should Wenger be very heavily weighted in a positive light vs Mourinho for not having had his resources I would 100% have agreed (probably wrote as much on here at the time). The way he recklessly destroyed Arsenal's squad with awful big signings & facilitating so many top players leaving on bosmans or for a fraction of their value in the 10s though disbars him from that. The more he had to spend in his latter years the worse they got. If you look at the specifics of what went on it was really, really bad:

 

• Sanchez, Oezil, Ramsey, RVP, Ox, Gnabry, Sagna, Clichy all among higher-profile players allowed to run contract down to 0 or 1 year and join us/City/Bayern/Juventus/United or sign new crazy mega contracts.
• c. 200 million spent on Mustafi, Xhaka, Perez, Elneny, Chambers, Wellbeck, Paulista, Debuchy.

 

Just remarkable stuff the way he managed the club from 2012 onwards.

[Captain Howdy]

Ferguson by a mile then Wenger then Klopp/Mourinho. If Klopp stays for any length of time he’ll jump ahead of Wenger imo.

[VladimirIlyich]

5 hours ago, Alex_K said:

Bit of a boring conversation now arguing word semantics on a Saturday but while I'm online you have made my exact point for me  .. best refers to being of the 'singular highest quality' ... great refers to being 'considerably above average'. Two different debates.

 

 

If you asked me in 2009 should Wenger be very heavily weighted in a positive light vs Mourinho for not having had his resources I would 100% have agreed (probably wrote as much on here at the time). The way he recklessly destroyed Arsenal's squad with awful big signings & facilitating so many top players leaving on bosmans or for a fraction of their value in the 10s though disbars him from that. The more he had to spend in his latter years the worse they got. If you look at the specifics of what went on it was really, really bad:

 

• Sanchez, Oezil, Ramsey, RVP, Ox, Gnabry, Sagna, Clichy all among higher-profile players allowed to run contract down to 0 or 1 year and join us/City/Bayern/Juventus/United or sign new crazy mega contracts.
• c. 200 million spent on Mustafi, Xhaka, Perez, Elneny, Chambers, Wellbeck, Paulista, Debuchy.

 

Just remarkable stuff the way he managed the club from 2012 onwards.

I dont think Wenger destroyed Arsenal at,I just think he was desperate to succeed but the game had moved on in terms of player contracts and their general attitudes. Wenger did well to win those FA Cups late on as Arsenal were fading fast.

[Captain Howdy]

9 hours ago, aws said:

If we're just talking Premiership then I'd put Wenger on a par with Ferguson 

 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

Mourinho at Chelsea took a team that had finished second, threw unprecedented sums of money at it and moved it up one place. That's about it.  That's the peak achievement of his Premier League career.

 

He comes quite a way down my list of Premier League managers; Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp, Guardiola, Dalglish, Pocchettino, Benitez and probably a few others would be higher up my list than that obnoxious fraud.

[Jose Jones]

28 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Mourinho at Chelsea took a team that had finished second, threw unprecedented sums of money at it and moved it up one place. That's about it.  That's the peak achievement of his Premier League career.

 

He comes quite a way down my list of Premier League managers; Ferguson, Wenger, Klopp, Guardiola, Dalglish, Pocchettino, Benitez and probably a few others would be higher up my list than that obnoxious fraud.

Silliness.

He's past it now and he's always been a bad twat, but Mourinho was one of the best in the world, certainly during his first stint with Chelsea.  

I know we're not counting other leagues in this thought experiment - but Champions League wins with Porto and Inter Milan, both of whom have never sniffed a Champions League win outside of that, two UEFA Cups, and league titles in 4 different countries does not a fraud make, no matter how obnoxious.

[Guest Alex_K]

On the comparison of Wenger/Mourinho, as much as a mind-fuck as it is to contemplate, the last time Arsenal were genuine title contenders was before Mourinho ever set foot in England, 15 years ago. They (or to some degree Spurs) should have won it in 15/16 but that was a fuck up of epic proportions for both sides - esp Arsenal with their post-January form that season. Also the season Mourinho irrevocably cracked - so there’s that too.

[AngryOfTuebrook]

7 hours ago, Jose Jones said:

Silliness.

He's past it now and he's always been a bad twat, but Mourinho was one of the best in the world, certainly during his first stint with Chelsea.  

I know we're not counting other leagues in this thought experiment - but Champions League wins with Porto and Inter Milan, both of whom have never sniffed a Champions League win outside of that, two UEFA Cups, and league titles in 4 different countries does not a fraud make, no matter how obnoxious.

Porto was the last time he got a team to punch above its weight.  Since then, he's relied on the formula of Someone else's successful team + Shitloads of cash.  It didn't take anything "Special" to apply that formula to Real Madrid, Ranieri's Chelsea or Mancini's Inter and pick up trophies.

[VladimirIlyich]

16 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Porto was the last time he got a team to punch above its weight.  Since then, he's relied on the formula of Someone else's successful team + Shitloads of cash.  It didn't take anything "Special" to apply that formula to Real Madrid, Ranieri's Chelsea or Mancini's Inter and pick up trophies.

I think Inter was a very good achievement given their record as perennial under achievers for a large part of the modern era. Chelsea were a shoe-in for the PL title,I mean even an Everton manager won the league with them!

[Jose Jones]

30 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Porto was the last time he got a team to punch above its weight.  Since then, he's relied on the formula of Someone else's successful team + Shitloads of cash.  It didn't take anything "Special" to apply that formula to Real Madrid, Ranieri's Chelsea or Mancini's Inter and pick up trophies.

It does though.

The list of managers who haven’t been able to manage squads of highly paid players is long and distinguished. See Rafa at Real Madrid for example.

 

Mourinho through his Porto, Chelsea and Inter period was a master of it, an especially impressive achievement since he had no playing career and was just a translator. And also seemed like a massive twat.

 

He started losing it at Real as his style of football became more outdated, and it’s continued since, which is nice.

[Numero Veinticinco]

On 09/06/2020 at 04:28, aRdja said:

Klopp needs to win the PL

You are tedious. 

[VladimirIlyich]

7 minutes ago, Hank Moody said:

You are tedious. 

Give it a couple of weeks and he wont even have an argument left.

[Numero Veinticinco]

4 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Give it a couple of weeks and he wont even have an argument left.

'Needs to win back to back league titles'.

[Bjornebye]

Alex hates Wenger. 

[VladimirIlyich]

16 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Alex hates Wenger. 

Ferguson?

[aRdja]

I don’t understand what was so controversial about my comment!? I love Klopp, but to be considered in this conversation he needs to win the league.

[aRdja]

.

 

[Guest Alex_K]

3 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

Alex hates Wenger. 

No, but fair is fair. Mourinho between 2004-2010 was an awesome coach. Knocking United out of Europe with Porto at Old Trafford; knocking Barca (v possibly at that time the greatest club side ever) out of Europe with Inter. These are great one-off managerial feats alongside sustained domestic success. There is no comparison between Mourinho & Mancini’s Inter in Europe for example. Mancini has always been out of his depth on those grand stages, as was Ranieri. Again - let’s separate the great from the best.

 

In one-off games/knockout ties, I’m not sure Arsenal under Wenger ever really won a tie they were underdogs in. Beating Juve in 06 on their way to the final? Probably counts (although we also beat the same Juve team a year before). Their response to being under-dogs usually though was to be resoundingly thrashed (see: Barca, Bayern .. even vs United). As cliche as it may sound they were often very much a fair weather team against the best of the best.
 

Mourinho is IMO wholly destructive now wherever he goes, but for that period he really was immense domestically & in elite knockout competition. Thanks to Benítez & Klopp that he probably doesn’t have at least 1 more European Cup to show for it.
 

 

[VERBAL DIARRHEA]

2 hours ago, aRdja said:

I don’t understand what was so controversial about my comment!? I love Klopp, but to be considered in this conversation he needs to win the league.

 

[Jimmy Hills Chin]

5 hours ago, aRdja said:

.

 

Just as a matter of interest, does anyone ever . when someone types . ?