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Keir Starmer


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7 hours ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

It doesn’t have basis in fact, AoT. I wish people would stop saying that. As for Sheerman, here are his tweets about two prominent Jews missing out on peerages: 

 

Yesterday morning (Sat) he tweeted to mystified followers: “Apparently there has been a bit of a run on silver shekels!” When Twitter users asked him to explain his cryptic tweet, he posted another one which referred to the first, saying: “Apparently Richard Desmond & Philip Green were on the original list for seats in the House of Lords!”

The "basis in fact" is that

- Israeli forces have provided training to US Police forces

- Israeli forces use knee-on-neck restraints against Palestinians.

I don't think Peake was trying to say (as some people have implied) that Derek Chauvin received lessons in racist murder from the Israeli state - even less that "the Jews" were to blame - so (like, presumably, the editor of the Independent) I don't think her comment was in any way anti-Semitic.

 

"Silver shekels" is a weird expression.  I don't know what was in his head when he tweeted that.

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1 minute ago, Duff Man said:

You're the expert on when evidence isn't required, and when it is.

 

It's always required to anyone making a claim. Which is why I (for instance) supplied evidence of an article being amended when I claimed an article had been amended.

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Just now, Stront19m Dog™ said:

It's always required to anyone making a claim. Which is why I (for instance) supplied evidence of an article being amended when I claimed an article had been amended.

You supplied evidence that a page had been updated, after making some shit up about the age of some quotes and being called on it. By the way, which quotes were you referring to again?

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38 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

How is Momentum the 'grass roots' of the Labour party?

 

Momentum is formed largely of members, is it not? I can't be arsed with a debate over semantics, but who would you class as Labour's grass roots, if it's not members?

 

And what about the Labour members who voted en mass for Starmer as leader but who's choice seems to be being derided as having smuggled in an establishment stooge? Aren't they grass roots?

 

Sure. I'd class any member as such.

 

What about  the people who joined the party purely to vote for Corbyn? How can they claim to be grassroots labour supporters? They're Jeremy Corbyn supporters. 

 

Again, I'd class anyone who's just a member as a grass roots supporter. Even someone who joined just because of Starmer. Aside from that, though, it's bizarre you would just assert that everyone who joined under Corbyn was just a Corbyn supporter. I know plenty of people who were members for decades, then left under Blair, and re-joined under Corbyn. They were/are Labour through and through, as well as Corbyn supporters. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

A labour man (or woman) is a labour man, they vote and support labour, pay their dues, knock on doors if needs be regardless of whether they do or don't like Kinnock or Ed Miliband or whoever else. They don't join another organisation and found blogs and websites to stick the boot in to the person who doesn't fit their very specific idea of what the Labour party should be.

 

How is Momentum any different from Blue Labour or Progress etc?  They're just groups of members within the overall membership. And if you're worried about people sticking the boot in, maybe prioritise the the dickheads like Streeting and Phillips who spent years doing it in the Times and on the BBC etc.

Excellent post. 

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6 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The "basis in fact" is that

- Israeli forces have provided training to US Police forces

- Israeli forces use knee-on-neck restraints against Palestinians.

I don't think Peake was trying to say (as some people have implied) that Derek Chauvin received lessons in racist murder from the Israeli state - even less that "the Jews" were to blame - so (like, presumably, the editor of the Independent) I don't think her comment was in any way anti-Semitic.

 

"Silver shekels" is a weird expression.  I don't know what was in his head when he tweeted that.

They haven’t provided any training in restraining suspects. 

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2 minutes ago, Stront19m Dog™ said:

 

Labour began in 2015. Before then it was just pretend Labour.

If your suggestion is Corbyn started a different party in 2015 I thought Nye Bevan, Tony Benn, Clemment Attlee, Michael Foot, etc were members of the Labour party, all were to the left of Jeremy Corbyn. To try to mock someone for being a socialist in the labour party is ridiculous but it seems to be gaining traction.

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4 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

They haven’t provided any training in restraining suspects. 

They have provided training. I don't think they've published the content of that training; but, in any case, I never said they had.

There is at least one private training provider who advertises his credentials as being ex-Israeli forces, who has provided training to US Police forces in restraint methods.

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33 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:


It’s a good thing for an unelected, unaccountable group to force itself in to democratic process? 

The leadership of Momentum are elected by and accountable to those Labour Party members who choose to also join Momentum. 

 

And in what sense does Momentum "force" itself anywhere?

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21 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

This infighting is just the start, a civil war is on the horizon. 

With the Tories as the only winners.

 

I think the main problem with "Centrists" - even more than any disagreements I have with them about specific policies - is their view that the party needs managing from HQ more than it needs to trust the members and allow them to decide. That undemocratic, centralising, command-and-control instinct is part of what alienates people from politics. 

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12 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The leadership of Momentum are elected by and accountable to those Labour Party members who choose to also join Momentum. 

 

And in what sense does Momentum "force" itself anywhere?


Here is a great overview of the London centric momentum telling it how it is.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0e99fc98-4872-11e8-8ae9-4b5ddcca99b3

 

Full disclosure, I personally know Beth and she’s great, but I don’t agree with everything she says, may the lord strike me down! 

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53 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

With the Tories as the only winners.

 

I think the main problem with "Centrists" - even more than any disagreements I have with them about specific policies - is their view that the party needs managing from HQ more than it needs to trust the members and allow them to decide. That undemocratic, centralising, command-and-control instinct is part of what alienates people from politics. 

I find the main problem with centrists in the labour party as you put it is that they seem to have a very strange fear of socialism.

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11 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

What about the rest of us? Where's my Labour Party funds to help me save up for a PC? Tight bastards.

You need to save up for a Political Correctness? You need a bit of that.

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Here's one for you, Gnasher, who said this on his maiden speech to the Commons?

 

I am a socialist not through reading a textbook that has caught my intellectual fancy, nor through unthinking tradition, but because I believe that, at its best, socialism corresponds most closely to an existence that is both rational and moral. It stands for cooperation, not confrontation; for fellowship, not fear. It stands for equality

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29 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Here's one for you, Gnasher, who said this on his maiden speech to the Commons?

 

I am a socialist not through reading a textbook that has caught my intellectual fancy, nor through unthinking tradition, but because I believe that, at its best, socialism corresponds most closely to an existence that is both rational and moral. It stands for cooperation, not confrontation; for fellowship, not fear. It stands for equality

Dennis Skinner.

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2 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The "basis in fact" is that

- Israeli forces have provided training to US Police forces

- Israeli forces use knee-on-neck restraints against Palestinians.

I don't think Peake was trying to say (as some people have implied) that Derek Chauvin received lessons in racist murder from the Israeli state - even less that "the Jews" were to blame - so (like, presumably, the editor of the Independent) I don't think her comment was in any way anti-Semitic.

 

"Silver shekels" is a weird expression.  I don't know what was in his head when he tweeted that.

What you’ve said there both illustrates why what was said has no basis in fact and shows that people still don’t seem to understand what was so bad about it. 
 

 

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