Keir Starmer

[Bjornebye]

8 minutes ago, Captain Howdy said:

Could say the same for Labour in fairness, 15 years now since they won an election and they are becoming more irrelevant with every passing year, to say that they have it all to do is the understatement of the century, they are a fucking shambles, they are getting fucking cremated by some of the worst political leaders ever seen. They really need to sort their shit.

Yeah no shit but I was talking about an even worse more pointless sack of shit than Labour. 

[VladimirIlyich]

1 hour ago, Captain Howdy said:

Could say the same for Labour in fairness, 15 years now since they won an election and they are becoming more irrelevant with every passing year, to say that they have it all to do is the understatement of the century, they are a fucking shambles, they are getting fucking cremated by some of the worst political leaders ever seen. They really need to sort their shit.

And the Lib Dems haven't won an election for over a century in whichever form they were in. Fifteen years is no time when you have no media representation.

[Bjornebye]

4 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

And the Lib Dems haven't won an election for over a century in whichever form they were in. Fifteen years is no time when you have no media representation.

The Lib Dem’s lie as much as the tories 

[Neil G]

On 20/04/2020 at 10:43, Section_31 said:

 

After he won (by a landslide of Labour members) Momentum said they were going to 'hold him to account'. In the middle of a global pandemic, with the worst Tory government in memory, they're going to hold Starmer to account. The actual fuck. 

 

Nothing wrong with that. He won the leadership by promising the Labour membership that he’d stick to Corbyn’s left-wing economic programme, and members’ groups like Momentum have a right to hold him to that, including publicly challenging him when required. Perfectly reasonable given that he hadn’t shown any evidence of genuine left-wing policy convictions prior to standing for the leadership. In fact, apart from Brexit, I can’t think of a single policy area that he expressed a clear view on before the leadership election.

 

It’s all the more important given that the Blairite faction in the party, which still apparently has influence at party HQ and around the country, will try to pull him to the right at every opportunity, and will very likely seek to get rid of him if he doesn’t play ball.

[Neil G]

On 20/04/2020 at 14:52, TK421 said:

I hope you are right, of course. I just look at a generation who struggle to make ends meet and get on the housing ladder, who then voted for Brexit to make it harder for themselves to make ends meet and buy a house, then did it again by voting for Boris over Corbyn and so on.  And now we have a pandemic which is killing healthy people of all ages and I keep reading that the government's approval ratings are at an all time high. So in addition to economic self-harm they are cool with being killed, too.   

 

The margin of victory for the Tories at the last election indicates to me that their policies chime with all generations from the youngest to oldest. 

Which generation? Young people voted overwhelmingly for Remain.

 

As for the general election, the Tories’ policies didn’t win it for them. They won through a combination of people wanting to get Brexit over and done with, people not wanting Corbyn as PM, and people thinking Labour’s manifesto was too costly and unachievable and that they’d bankrupt the country like they did last time (sic). The latter two groups included plenty of young and middle-aged people who voted Remain.

 

Two out of those three factors are no longer an issue, while the third could be addressed if Labour found the gumption to explain how the public finances of work. It’s not an insurmountable problem of demographics or entrenched attitudes, it’s a question of effective political communication.

[Neil G]

On 20/04/2020 at 11:13, Sugar Ape said:

Nah, don’t agree at all. I’ve seen more of Starmer and his front bench than I’ve seen of Corbyn, Abbott etc... over the last few months. You mightn’t agree with the line he’s taken on the pandemic which is fine but saying the party might as well have no leader is well wide of the mark.

 

 

Corbyn and co were never going to get any favourable coverage once the general election was done. The media didn’t consider them relevant any more. Whenever Corbyn made a statement on coronavirus or anything else important, a load of snide journos piped up with crap like “I forgot he was still leader” or “no-one gives a shit what you think any more comrade.” When he questioned the government on why its strategy diverged so much from that of most other governments and from WHO advice, the response was “shut up, do you think you know better than the government’s scientists?”. Nobody took him seriously.

 

Jairz may be overstating it, but for someone whose election was greeted with a universal media chorus of “finally we’ve got a real opposition!!!”, Starmer isn’t cutting it as LOTO so far. He’s nowhere near visible enough. The Tories have a virtual monopoly of the airwaves, and the only meaningful vocal opposition and scrutiny is coming from Piers fucking Morgan. Starmer should be holding a regular press conference once or twice weekly, at the same time, day and venue to make it an established media fixture. He should use this to ask the kind of questions and make the kind of criticisms that the likes of Morgan and the Mirror are making so that they register clearly in the public consciousness as Labour-led opposition. Newspaper articles and interviews with ministers on Marr and Peston aren’t going to achieve that. During the the leadership campaign his supporters were raving about how he’d use his forensic prosecutor skills at PMQs to embarrass the government and get positive coverage for it - this is a chance to do just that, in a context where he controls the agenda and will get all the coverage unlike the circus of PMQs.

 

I get that he’s worried about being seen to be politicising the crisis, but the right kind of tough scrutiny now could save thousands of lives. Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have all been on point with the tone of their criticism since returning to the back benches, and Starmer would be safe to emulate this given the absolute clusterfuck this government is presiding over and the current level of public support for the NHS. 

 

If he doesn’t cut through now then when he comes to try to hold the Tories to account after the crisis, including pushing for a public inquiry, the Tory and media narrative will be “you never said any of this at the time, you’re just trying to score political points after the event”. And it’ll have traction with the voters. We’ve seen with Miliband and Corbyn how crucial it is to make a positive impression with the electorate at the start of their tenure. Starmer has a golden opportunity to cement himself in voters’ minds as a principled champion of the public and a credible Prime Minister in waiting, and he’s not taking it.

[Numero Veinticinco]

16 minutes ago, Neil G said:

He won the leadership by promising the Labour membership that he’d stick to Corbyn’s left-wing economic programme

He did? Only thing I saw was him saying he wasn’t going to ‘throw out’ the last manifesto. Interesting if he said he’ll stick to the same economic programme. 

[Neil G]

5 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

He did? Only thing I saw was him saying he wasn’t going to ‘throw out’ the last manifesto. Interesting if he said he’ll stick to the same economic programme. 

Same difference, no? I don’t recall what his specific words were, I just know that he’s made a commitment to stick by the general policy direction set by Corbyn and McDonnell.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Neil G said:

Same difference, no? I don’t recall what his specific words were, I just know that he’s made a commitment to stick by the general policy direction set by Corbyn and McDonnell.

I think there’s probably quite a significant different to him, mate. I doubt he wants to be beholden to a significant amount of that stuff. I mean, he can’t really be held to account for something he didn’t promise, is my point. Momentum might well try, like. 

[sir roger]

27 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Nothing wrong with that. He won the leadership by promising the Labour membership that he’d stick to Corbyn’s left-wing economic programme, and members’ groups like Momentum have a right to hold him to that, including publicly challenging him when required. Perfectly reasonable given that he hadn’t shown any evidence of genuine left-wing policy convictions prior to standing for the leadership. In fact, apart from Brexit, I can’t think of a single policy area that he expressed a clear view on before the leadership election.

 

It’s all the more important given that the Blairite faction in the party, which still apparently has influence at party HQ and around the country, will try to pull him to the right at every opportunity, and will very likely seek to get rid of him if he doesn’t play ball.

The members of Momentum will be the ones running the length and breadth of the country trying to get Starmer elected next time up , so I cant see any massive problem in them hoping he takes their issues seriously as leader.

[Duff Man]

According to Stephen Bush, the reason for him not going on the attack now is that he's playing some kind of 4D chess re the lockdown exit strategy, which he's hoping will pay off longer term when the Tories' plan inevitably fails.

[Sugar Ape]

7 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Corbyn and co were never going to get any favourable coverage once the general election was done. The media didn’t consider them relevant any more. Whenever Corbyn made a statement on coronavirus or anything else important, a load of snide journos piped up with crap like “I forgot he was still leader” or “no-one gives a shit what you think any more comrade.” When he questioned the government on why its strategy diverged so much from that of most other governments and from WHO advice, the response was “shut up, do you think you know better than the government’s scientists?”. Nobody took him seriously.

 

Jairz may be overstating it, but for someone whose election was greeted with a universal media chorus of “finally we’ve got a real opposition!!!”, Starmer isn’t cutting it as LOTO so far. He’s nowhere near visible enough. The Tories have a virtual monopoly of the airwaves, and the only meaningful vocal opposition and scrutiny is coming from Piers fucking Morgan. Starmer should be holding a regular press conference once or twice weekly, at the same time, day and venue to make it an established media fixture. He should use this to ask the kind of questions and make the kind of criticisms that the likes of Morgan and the Mirror are making so that they register clearly in the public consciousness as Labour-led opposition. Newspaper articles and interviews with ministers on Marr and Peston aren’t going to achieve that. During the the leadership campaign his supporters were raving about how he’d use his forensic prosecutor skills at PMQs to embarrass the government and get positive coverage for it - this is a chance to do just that, in a context where he controls the agenda and will get all the coverage unlike the circus of PMQs.

 

I get that he’s worried about being seen to be politicising the crisis, but the right kind of tough scrutiny now could save thousands of lives. Corbyn, Abbott and McDonnell have all been on point with the tone of their criticism since returning to the back benches, and Starmer would be safe to emulate this given the absolute clusterfuck this government is presiding over and the current level of public support for the NHS. 

 

If he doesn’t cut through now then when he comes to try to hold the Tories to account after the crisis, including pushing for a public inquiry, the Tory and media narrative will be “you never said any of this at the time, you’re just trying to score political points after the event”. And it’ll have traction with the voters. We’ve seen with Miliband and Corbyn how crucial it is to make a positive impression with the electorate at the start of their tenure. Starmer has a golden opportunity to cement himself in voters’ minds as a principled champion of the public and a credible Prime Minister in waiting, and he’s not taking it.

You want him to emulate what Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell are currently doing? 
 

They’ve just led the party to the worst defeat in living memory, calling the Tories cunts at every turn and being as combative as possible and got absolutely nowhere. Maybe a different, more subtle approach is required so I’m prepared to give him more than two weeks before saying the party might as well have no leader. He hasn’t even had a PMQs yet for fucks sake. 
 

In the two weeks he’s been in charge we’ve had the pandemic, that report being dropped on him, Johnson critically ill (allegedly) in hospital and the government dominating the airwaves with daily briefings covered by every outlet in the country. I’d suggest it’s a bit difficult getting coverage in that climate and I don’t think him or his front bench have done a bad job of it. 
 

Maybe his approach is flawed and he should go at it another way but he’s clearly trying to avoid looking like he’s profiting politically from this which is why he isn’t holding his own press conferences and stuff. You might not agree with it but after such a big victory in the leadership contest he’s got the right to take whatever approach he feels is best. 
 

Another point of view would be that the Tories are fucking this up enough on their own so leave them to it. What’s that Napoleon quote “Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake”. 

[Pureblood]

30 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Which generation? Young people voted overwhelmingly for Remain.

 

As for the general election, the Tories’ policies didn’t win it for them. They won through a combination of people wanting to get Brexit over and done with, people not wanting Corbyn as PM, and people thinking Labour’s manifesto was too costly and unachievable and that they’d bankrupt the country like they did last time (sic). The latter two groups included plenty of young and middle-aged people who voted Remain.

 

Two out of those three factors are no longer an issue, while the third could be addressed if Labour found the gumption to explain how the public finances of work. It’s not an insurmountable problem of demographics or entrenched attitudes, it’s a question of effective political communication.

I get that more young people voted for Remain/Labour, I'm just saying that Tory policy/Brexit isn't the exclusive preserve of older generations.  There are an awful lot of younger people who swallow the bullshit and lies their parents and the media feed them.

[Sugar Ape]

5 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

According to Stephen Bush, the reason for him not going on the attack now is that he's playing some kind of 4D chess re the lockdown exit strategy, which will hopefully pay off longer term when the Tories' plan inevitably fails.

 

My instinct would be to call them cunts and kick off over all kinds from PPE to testing but that would probably be giving them what they want. 
 

The Tories and the Prime Minister, inexplicably, are polling at highs not seen since the days of Blair in his prime. They’d probably love to be able to have a big argument with Labour right now and deflect from their shit show not to mention getting the right wing press back on their side just as the likes of The Times and Telegraph are finally starting to hold them to account, at least a little bit anyway. 

[VladimirIlyich]

12 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

You want him to emulate what Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell are currently doing? 
 

They’ve just led the party to the worst defeat in living memory, calling the Tories cunts at every turn and being as combative as possible and got absolutely nowhere. Maybe a different, more subtle approach is required so I’m prepared to give him more than two weeks before saying the party might as well have no leader. He hasn’t even had a PMQs yet for fucks sake. 
 

In the two weeks he’s been in charge we’ve had the pandemic, that report being dropped on him, Johnson critically ill (allegedly) in hospital and the government dominating the airwaves with daily briefings covered by every outlet in the country. I’d suggest it’s a bit difficult getting coverage in that climate and I don’t think him or his front bench have done a bad job of it. 
 

Maybe his approach is flawed and he should go at it another way but he’s clearly trying to avoid looking like he’s profiting politically from this which is why he isn’t holding his own press conferences and stuff. You might not agree with it but after such a big victory in the leadership contest he’s got the right to take whatever approach he feels is best. 
 

Another point of view would be that the Tories are fucking this up enough on their own so leave them to it. What’s that Napoleon quote “Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake”. 

Some of this I agree with,the 'give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves' strategy. This almost worked in 2017,was it? But failed spectacularly in 2019. Like I keep saying,having no media voice is a massive hurdle to overcome and its something you will have to create yourself as a Labour leader,now and in the future. Being invisible is not really going to work.

[VladimirIlyich]

14 minutes ago, TK421 said:

I get that more young people voted for Remain/Labour, I'm just saying that Tory policy/Brexit isn't the exclusive preserve of older generations.  There are an awful lot of younger people who swallow the bullshit and lies their parents and the media feed them.

Usually ignorant kids who have stupid parents. This is largely what were once termed the 'working class' but there are a large amount of people within this demographic who are nothing like the old style working class and its difficult to even label them,an underclass maybe?

[Sugar Ape]

6 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Some of this I agree with,the 'give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves' strategy. This almost worked in 2017,was it? But failed spectacularly in 2019. Like I keep saying,having no media voice is a massive hurdle to overcome and its something you will have to create yourself as a Labour leader,now and in the future. Being invisible is not really going to work.

They have got a voice though, just not as prominent a voice as The Tories have which, considering most press are right leaning, isn’t surprising. Some people seem to think it’s a failure they’re not getting equal airtime with the government which is never going to happen in normal times never mind during a once in a century pandemic. 
 

Like I said the other day they had ministers on Ridge and Marr on Sunday with McDonell retweeting clips of them and praising the performance of Dodds. Starmer has had an article in the Mail and, I think, The Times in the last week and I’ve seen plenty of Labour people on Sky and BBC news. 

[Brownie]

 

[Jairzinho]

Is it too late to get this Not Sure character in?

[Bobby Hundreds]

I think most polls just highlight how many dickheads there are.

[SasaS]

58 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

Another point of view would be that the Tories are fucking this up enough on their own so leave them to it. What’s that Napoleon quote “Never interrupt your enemy when he’s making a mistake”. 

"Home in three days. Don't wash!"

[Sugar Ape]

Despite it clearly being his own fault he caught Coronavirus and got so ill by being a fucking moron, and video evidence of him saying he was shaking hands with people in hospitals, he’ll still come out of this as the hero who beat Covid-19. He’s untouchable. Lovable Boris eh. 

[Duff Man]

1 hour ago, Sugar Ape said:

My instinct would be to call them cunts and kick off over all kinds from PPE to testing but that would probably be giving them what they want. 
 

The Tories and the Prime Minister, inexplicably, are polling at highs not seen since the days of Blair in his prime. They’d probably love to be able to have a big argument with Labour right now and deflect from their shit show not to mention getting the right wing press back on their side just as the likes of The Times and Telegraph are finally starting to hold them to account, at least a little bit anyway. 

I would say join them, then, as it probably won't carry on for much longer, and they can hardly accuse Starmer of playing politics if he's making the same criticisms they are. He doesn't have to be overly aggressive; just dispassionate explanations of the massive fuckups, will do.

[Sugar Ape]

26 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

I would say join them, then, as it probably won't carry on for much longer, and they can hardly accuse Starmer of playing politics if he's making the same criticisms they are. He doesn't have to be overly aggressive; just dispassionate explanations of the massive fuckups, will do.

Like I said I’d be up for being more aggressive myself if it was down to me but he’s clearly going for ‘grown up’ politics for want of a better word. Whether it will turn out to be the right strategy I don’t know but I think it’s too early to give him grief over it at the minute. 
 

Here is that Dodds interview from Sunday, starts at 37 minutes. I’d never heard her speak before and It seems pretty good to me what she’s saying.

 

 

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Duff Man said:

According to Stephen Bush, the reason for him not going on the attack now is that he's playing some kind of 4D chess re the lockdown exit strategy, which he's hoping will pay off longer term when the Tories' plan inevitably fails.

In fairness whilst I'm not sure I agree this was the strategy Corbyn had in mind imo re brexit, sit tight and let the inevitable tory distaster unfold, watch the tories self implode (as they were doing l,) then when it all fell apart pick up the pieces.

 

Unfortunately for him and me the cowards in the liberal party  shit themselves and the utter cuntstains in the labour party made him play his hand prematurely so he would personally fail and lose the labour leadership.