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Apparently the workers at Heathrow are not striking for a pay rise but the re introduction of the 10% that was stopped from their pay during the Covid epidemic.

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2 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Apologies in advance for speaking his name, but Corbyn gets a lot of praise for turning up at these events, but what has he really done in his entire career to make a serious change.

 

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3 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

The principle that I want Labour to show at the moment is the ‘do what it takes to win’ principle. Only then can they change anything. If the front bench turning up to picket lines makes them look like a party that’s not a party of government to some of the voters needed to actually get into government, then fine. Build a big fucking Trojan horse and ride it into Number 10 if needed, because that’s the only way to make a difference.

 

It’s all very well patting ourselves on the back, getting photos ‘supporting’ workers, and then giving the Tories a huge mandate to destroy workers. That’s not supporting workers, not really. Supporting workers is using your platform to make substantive difference to their lives. Apologies in advance for speaking his name, but Corbyn gets a lot of praise for turning up at these events, but what has he really done in his entire career to make a serious change. Photos on the picket line make you feel good, but years in government allow you to do good. If he won the election, he could have given the workers the rise. Lammy turning up at NHS pickets doesn’t actually get them what they need. If you are serious about helping people, you can’t just ‘win the argument’, you have to win elections. 

 

But the issue with Lammy is not just about "standing on picket lines" it's his refusal as a member of the shadow cabinet to show support for workers using their democratic right to strike. 

 

Labour was born out of unions to give a voice to workers, unions provide the Labour party with the funding so these people's voice can be heard. The workers at Heathrow are on very low wages and are not demanding a pay rise but a return to the rate they were on pre pandemic. These workers are being treated appallingly.

 

 

 

As for your mandatory dig at Corbyn, he's been an MP since the year dot and as far as I'm aware has always tried to stand up for the rights of workers as far as his power allows. His job is also to represent the people in his constituency and I believe he does/did this quite well. 

 

People across the world do strike, they go on demos, they form picket lines. We see it here, we see it in the States and we see it on a regular basis in France. Been that way a long time and long may it continue. If people and politicians choose to show support then good for them.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I believe we are in agreement, there are times you can totally justify standing on a picket line (NHS being obvious) as I stated Labour could explain why they think the RMT are acting incorrectly at this current moment but he has stated never stand on a picket line, despite having done it himself. You would imagine that has come from the leadership, as opposed to a change in his core beliefs, hence my principles quip.

 

That was 2016 and perhaps he is trying to learn from from the fact labour didn't win the last 2 general elections and is trying to find a way to put that right. I can see why there should be a discussion around his words of "never" as only an idiot would say never to anything let alone this particular issue, but the idea politicians can't change their mind or take a different view point is nonsensical. It assumes they are incapable of learning as they grow or listening to the electorate. I like the idea the politicians (just like the rest of us) view the world differently as we get older and have more experience of life situations. 

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27 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

That was 2016 and perhaps he is trying to learn from from the fact labour didn't win the last 2 general elections and is trying to find a way to put that right. I can see why there should be a discussion around his words of "never" as only an idiot would say never to anything let alone this particular issue, but the idea politicians can't change their mind or take a different view point is nonsensical. It assumes they are incapable of learning as they grow or listening to the electorate. I like the idea the politicians (just like the rest of us) view the world differently as we get older and have more experience of life situations. 

I don't disagree but again my reasoning was completely around the word "never", it is a completely stupid thing to say, but I worry he has said it because it is (un)official Labour party policy, not because he has grown or changed. 

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16 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I don't disagree but again my reasoning was completely around the word "never", it is a completely stupid thing to say, but I worry he has said it because it is (un)official Labour party policy, not because he has grown or changed. 

He might have said it because it's the official party line. He might have said it without quite thinking it through as the words come out of his mouth. He might have said it as he thinks it's the only way labour will be elected as a government. What is clear is interviewers want the labour front benches to show a glimpse of disunion so that can be used against them. 

 

I agree it was a stupid things to say, but I also think it is a pretty tough one to row back from at this point because it will illustrate disunion across the opposition front bench. 

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I think we can all agree there will be more strikes, from different industries over the summer, so we will find out what the official party line is.

 

I, like the majority on here, am desperate for a Labour government and I do understand the logic of being pragmatic and not scaring off potential voters, but surely there has to be a line where you actually stand for what you believe in and try to convince people to come with you. If we don't do something because it will get negative coverage, then Labour would never do anything.  

 

It is similar to the gun lobby in the states or the anti-abortion lot. Whilst they make the most noise, every poll shows the majority of people in favour of stricter (common sense) gun laws and 2/3 are pro choice. Watching/reading coverage from the usual suspects and you would not suspect this. The Democrats have been scared into silence on these issues and over the long term have lost out. 

 

My concern is this is similar for Labour and industrial action, despite the noise and properganda, the majority of people support the Rail strike, so much so that even commentators are mocking of somehow blaming Labour for the strikes. Labour feel the need to stay quiet on the subject, as the summer progresses and more industrial action takes place Labour will have to "pick a side" and they seem to be picking what they believe the majority want, not what the reality currently is. 

I believe one of the reasons for the current support for the Rail workers, is enough people are feeling the pinch and want a rail victory, as it will help them. How many times have we been told people care about the cash in their pockets, not Palastine etc, well this summer people will be fighting for the cash in their pockets and I think it is a mistake of Labours to sit on the fence because they are worried about front pages of newspapers. 

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https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/uk-news/google-searches-join-union-soar-24298556

 

The current rail strike and talk of other industrial action by teachers, post office workers, NHS staff and even barristers has seen a huge 184% increase in Google searches for 'join union', according to a new report. The analysis reveals the increase seen on June 22 in the United Kingdom was the highest level in over a year.

 

 

The data also reveals that searches for ‘how to strike’ have exploded 135% since the strikes began. A spokesperson from Workello said: “This week the British public have been faced with trains up and down the country coming to a standstill as a result of these strikes by RMT, leading to difficulties getting to work, attending events and appointments.

"However, the strikes have also encouraged a surge of online interest in joining a trade union, indicating the massive impact that strikers are having across the country. With more strikes across other sectors rumoured to take place in the future, it will be interesting to see whether these searches continue to rise, especially if strikers achieve their desired outcome.”

 

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5 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I think we can all agree there will be more strikes, from different industries over the summer, so we will find out what the official party line is.

 

I, like the majority on here, am desperate for a Labour government and I do understand the logic of being pragmatic and not scaring off potential voters, but surely there has to be a line where you actually stand for what you believe in and try to convince people to come with you. If we don't do something because it will get negative coverage, then Labour would never do anything.  

 

It is similar to the gun lobby in the states or the anti-abortion lot. Whilst they make the most noise, every poll shows the majority of people in favour of stricter (common sense) gun laws and 2/3 are pro choice. Watching/reading coverage from the usual suspects and you would not suspect this. The Democrats have been scared into silence on these issues and over the long term have lost out. 

 

My concern is this is similar for Labour and industrial action, despite the noise and properganda, the majority of people support the Rail strike, so much so that even commentators are mocking of somehow blaming Labour for the strikes. Labour feel the need to stay quiet on the subject, as the summer progresses and more industrial action takes place Labour will have to "pick a side" and they seem to be picking what they believe the majority want, not what the reality currently is. 

I believe one of the reasons for the current support for the Rail workers, is enough people are feeling the pinch and want a rail victory, as it will help them. How many times have we been told people care about the cash in their pockets, not Palastine etc, well this summer people will be fighting for the cash in their pockets and I think it is a mistake of Labours to sit on the fence because they are worried about front pages of newspapers. 

Fully agreed

I get the whole pragmatic approach but there is a fighting chance the strikes are going to spread over the summer and sitting in the middle isn't going to be really an option.

Quite frankly I don't see the problem in saying ..these people have had almost a decade of pay restraints and in many cases gave worked through the pandemic, due to the cost of living rise, they deserve a decent pat rise just to stay afloat.

And if necessary bring up the Tories wanting to ease pay restraints on the very wealthy,point out the billions wasted in track and trace and the ppe scandal.

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So Gnasher, you quoted me in this post, but very little of it - if anything - has anything to do with what I actually said. So either you're making a general point after replying to me or you've misunderstood something I've said. Either way, I'll respond to it, if only to clarify my position. 

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

But the issue with Lammy is not just about "standing on picket lines" it's his refusal as a member of the shadow cabinet to show support for workers using their democratic right to strike. 

The first thing I'll say, in response to the above quote is to ask 'what refusal to show support for workers using their democratic right to strike' are you talking about. If it's the one of incident of him saying he doesn't support workers who are balloting for a strike at BA, then fine, but unless I've missed something then David Lammy (as I confirmed over a decade ago on this site, 'I despise') hasn't made any blanket statement about not supporting workers or their right to strike. He did say he didn't support the BA strike. He has said on Ridge's show, that 'it would not be responsible opposition if I suggested [saying] yes to every strike' and 'I'm serious about the business of being in government and the business of being in government is to support negotiation' he said 'every dispute will be different' and went on to list differences. I mean, he isn't refusing to do it because they're workers or that he doesn't support people's right to strike. He just doesn't support this action. That can't be extrapolated out beyond the party not wanting to have front benchers joining picket lines. 

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

As for your mandatory dig at Corbyn, he's been an MP since the year dot and as far as I'm aware has always tried to stand up for the rights of workers as far as his power allows. His job is also to represent the people in his constituency and I believe he does/did this quite well. 

Okay, as for your mandatory rush to defend Corbyn, I don't really see how this refutes what I actually said. He has always tried to stand up for the rights of workers, mostly by joining pickets and having photos with strikers and lending his voice to workers. That's all well and good, but it's roughly as useful as 'thoughts and prayers' are from republicans. He was Labour leader and tried to win an election twice. I would prefer somebody in government, who never had a picture with me, never stood never to me at a strike, and never lent me their voice but changes laws or introduced policies to help me than I would somebody to have a picture but I suffer. That should be particularly controversial outside of who it is being said about. 

4 hours ago, Gnasher said:

People across the world do strike, they go on demos, they form picket lines. We see it here, we see it in the States and we see it on a regular basis in France. Been that way a long time and long may it continue. If people and politicians choose to show support then good for them.

I mean, I can't believe this is in any way in response to anything I've said. I'm aware that strikes happen, I support people's right to strike, and I am fine with politicians supporting them. I'm fine with it right up until the point that it might stop them actually helping them properly. I honestly have the opinion that some people would sooner be out of government but shouting the right stuff than keeping quiet and being in government and changing the people's lives. I'd take Blair's doing something about it something over Corbyn's support but doing nothing any day, it doesn't matter that my politics are closer to Corbyn's than Blair. Real policy beats would-if-I-could every single time. 

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Also, I guess it should be said for avoidance of doubt, I support any BA workers striking to get their pay back to the levels it was. It should be done immediately and automatically as soon as the business allows for it. Just incase anybody is retarded and thinks me talking about getting into government means 'fuck the workers'. 

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2 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I think we can all agree there will be more strikes, from different industries over the summer, so we will find out what the official party line is.

 

I, like the majority on here, am desperate for a Labour government and I do understand the logic of being pragmatic and not scaring off potential voters, but surely there has to be a line where you actually stand for what you believe in and try to convince people to come with you. If we don't do something because it will get negative coverage, then Labour would never do anything.  

 

It is similar to the gun lobby in the states or the anti-abortion lot. Whilst they make the most noise, every poll shows the majority of people in favour of stricter (common sense) gun laws and 2/3 are pro choice. Watching/reading coverage from the usual suspects and you would not suspect this. The Democrats have been scared into silence on these issues and over the long term have lost out. 

 

My concern is this is similar for Labour and industrial action, despite the noise and properganda, the majority of people support the Rail strike, so much so that even commentators are mocking of somehow blaming Labour for the strikes. Labour feel the need to stay quiet on the subject, as the summer progresses and more industrial action takes place Labour will have to "pick a side" and they seem to be picking what they believe the majority want, not what the reality currently is. 

I believe one of the reasons for the current support for the Rail workers, is enough people are feeling the pinch and want a rail victory, as it will help them. How many times have we been told people care about the cash in their pockets, not Palastine etc, well this summer people will be fighting for the cash in their pockets and I think it is a mistake of Labours to sit on the fence because they are worried about front pages of newspapers. 

I don't really argue with what you're saying. And lammy could well live to regret his words and Starmer regret the splinters in his arse. But I can't help but feel labour know there's such a shit show coming with the economy, that they just need to sit silently and let the Tories destroy themselves. It's not like labour can offer a solution with the Tories sitting on an 80 seat majority and over the past few years every time they've come up with a policy, the Tories have stolen it. 

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16 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Apparently there's three 'Red wall' Tories about to defect to Labour.

 

Should be in the Torygraph tomorrow.


Was on their website at 6:30 mate. 

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When you look at the sort of policies and legislation these defecting mp's have been supporting for the past three years I'm not sure I woukd be giving them a cheery hello just because they have obviously weighed up their chances for reelection are stronger with a red rosette.

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I bet Starmer will be slammed for it though. ‘See, I told you he was a Tory’… what, for winning back seats in the red wall that *cough* Labour lost last election and doing so without there even being an election, and winning those seats from the Tories and embarrassing them. 
 

Tory cunt.

 

Seriously, if I hear any bollocks on this, it’ll drive me mad. It’ll be from people who think being anti Tory is giving them more seats and being pro Tory is taking their seats. Fuck that sort of thinking. 

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1 minute ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I bet Starmer will be slammed for it though. ‘See, I told you he was a Tory’… what, for winning back seats in the red wall that *cough* Labour lost last election and doing so without there even being an election, and winning those seats from the Tories and embarrassing them. 
 

Tory cunt.

 

Seriously, if I hear any bollocks on this, it’ll drive me mad. It’ll be from people who think being anti Tory is giving them more seats and being pro Tory is taking their seats. Fuck that sort of thinking. 

I think there should be by-elections if people defect from parties. The people elected a Tory and it should be up to the people to remove them. Even moreso if they are joining an opponent's party. 

 

 

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We elect MPs in this country, not parties. If the MP that the people elected feels his or her constituents are better served by being in a different party, then that's their right.

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5 hours ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I think there should be by-elections if people defect from parties. The people elected a Tory and it should be up to the people to remove them. Even moreso if they are joining an opponent's party. 

 

 

I think that's a fair shout, to be honest. People do, technically, vote for a member of parliament for the constituency they're in. That said, we can't ignore that these aren't always the reasons people give those MPs their vote. They vote for who they want to govern the country, because when voting for Labour or Tory, that's the end result.  

 

5 hours ago, Strontium said:

We elect MPs in this country, not parties. If the MP that the people elected feels his or her constituents are better served by being in a different party, then that's their right.

Other than 'technically correct, the best kind of correct', I think you'd be hard pushed to make an argument that this is what most people are actually doing though. It is what they do, of course; you're right. But it's not why they do that. Mostly. On the voting slip you have the name of the MP and then party right next to the box, and I'd say it's a fair shout that majority don't have an idea who the MP is and they vote for the party. They vote for the party based off of the manifesto or the leader of the party or the perception of who is going to be better for them or the country or what the media tell them, etc. Of course, some actually do vote for the MP, but there's a reason we have these national debates, and I certainly vote based on who I want to govern the land and the policies I want to be implemented. 

 

Almost like we should change the voting system. 

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7 hours ago, sir roger said:

When you look at the sort of policies and legislation these defecting mp's have been supporting for the past three years I'm not sure I woukd be giving them a cheery hello just because they have obviously weighed up their chances for reelection are stronger with a red rosette.


No, make a big deal of it and fuck the chumps off before selection.

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