Keir Starmer

[TheDrowningMan 717]

3 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Interesting perspective. I can only speak from what I've seen of him and Labour, but they certainly don't seem to be out to punish the poor and vulnerable to me mate. Genuinely don't think that's his bag at all (especially considering his track record). What is it about him/them that says to you they're out to do that? 

It’s more what the party under him hasn’t said.
 

Even today, compare Alison McGovern’s comment on the Tories’ new Way to Work misery-porn to that of the Lib Dems’ Wendy Chamberlain speaks volumes, and I cannot stand the Lib Dems.
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60149016

[Pureblood 7,452]

Steer Calmer

[TheDrowningMan 717]

15 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

The fact debates about Labour being electable are even being had while we're under the yoke of a quite possible bona fide criminal regime shows you where the problem is.

 

Any Labour government would be better than this crowd, Corbyn at the helm or Starmer, fuck it, the SNP can invade for all I care.

I don’t disagree that they’d be better by default. However, speaking as someone who, in the last 14 months alone, has lost my job and good health thanks to COVID and who has to watch people I care about suffer at the mercy of landlords and the DWP, I’m not interesting in making a personal effort to support a party that will not commit to supporting people in need to a considerably greater extent than the Tories will.

 

As I said, it won’t take much to win me around, but I’ll vote for a third party non-entity or spoil my ballot if Labour’s MO come 2024 is merely less incendiary Tory.

[Arniepie 601]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I'd have thought those of us who hate these Tories and want them out would be pleased that the last Survation poll showed Labour 10 points ahead and today's IpsosMori showed Labour 9 points ahead, but I guess that's not everyone's main motivation. It'll be interesting if rumours of the Corbyn party are true, those who are more concerned with him or - more legitimately, in my view - pushing his previous manifesto can decide what they want to do. 

You can despise the tories and still be underwhelmed by starmer.

Considering their record over the last 2 years and that utter lying cunt in charge, there is an argument that labour should be out of sight.

You could also that lead is down to the never ending car crash that is boris johnson,and not the appeal of starmer.

[Arniepie 601]

24 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

I'd like to think that Starmer's policy is to keep Labour's collective head down, and just not be as shit as the Tories up to the next election. Offer something bland and non-threatening so the moderate voters plump for Labour as a safe pair of hands, then implement a more progressive centre left manifesto once elected. I won't hold my breath though.

Considering how anyone remotely left wing has been treated, I think I'm with you there.

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

2 hours ago, Arniepie said:

You can despise the tories and still be underwhelmed by starmer.

Considering their record over the last 2 years and that utter lying cunt in charge, there is an argument that labour should be out of sight.

You could also that lead is down to the never ending car crash that is boris johnson,and not the appeal of starmer.

You could argue all of those things with great utility, but what people can't legitimately say is that they want the Tories out whilst voting in a way that makes it harder for the Tories to be beaten. I genuinely don't think any sort of lead will be good enough for some. 5 points, 10 points, 20 points. It doesn't really matter to some, and it's their prerogative to think what they like. I guess it just rankles when many of the same people didn't seem particularly bothered when the last leader had a 22 point gap with the Tories. I dunno, I just feel like if somebody is okay with a 22 point deficit (and blame everyone else for it) then dismiss a 10 point lead... it's probably not about the Tories. Again, that's their choice. I just don't agree with it.

2 hours ago, TheDrowningMan said:

I don’t disagree that they’d be better by default. However, speaking as someone who, in the last 14 months alone, has lost my job and good health thanks to COVID and who has to watch people I care about suffer at the mercy of landlords and the DWP, I’m not interesting in making a personal effort to support a party that will not commit to supporting people in need to a considerably greater extent than the Tories will.

 

As I said, it won’t take much to win me around, but I’ll vote for a third party non-entity or spoil my ballot if Labour’s MO come 2024 is merely less incendiary Tory.

They've said they'll keep the 20 quid uplift (calling it an attack on the poorest) then scrap Universal Credit all together and replace it with something better. Like you, I've been dismayed at how some people have been left to suffer. I just know the way out of it isn't to help keep the Tories in power. At least for my vote. I genuinely think those saying they're just the same thing are misguided. Anyway, there's lots of time for everything to swing one way or the other. There's not much Labour can really do beyond trying to remain a credible alternative in the eyes of the electorate. All of the electorate. I guess we're going to see if he can pull it off or not. Lots of shit can happen between then and now. 

[the chimp 1,793]

1 hour ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

 

Made up to see NV back. Hope you and yours are well, mate.

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

11 minutes ago, the chimp said:

Made up to see NV back. Hope you and yours are well, mate.

Yeah all doing okay thanks mate. All good. Good to see you. 

[Pureblood 7,452]

19 minutes ago, the chimp said:

Made up to see NV back. Hope you and yours are well, mate.

Seconded - one of the forum's ever dwindling quota of good guys.

 

*counts names on fingers*

[Strontium 10,973]

The chairs of West Ham and East Ham CLPs have both resigned, obviously upset that Labour is leading in the polls by 10 points.

 

This bit, however, has me wondering if it's supposed to be satire:

 

 

MOST SUCCESSFUL PARTY LEADER IN LIVING MEMORY

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

2 minutes ago, Strontium said:

The chairs of West Ham and East Ham CLPs have both resigned, obviously upset that Labour is leading in the polls by 10 points.

 

This bit, however, has me wondering if it's supposed to be satire:

 

 

MOST SUCCESSFUL PARTY LEADER IN LIVING MEMORY

I genuinely don't understand how somebody can take this seriously. It so blatantly driven by Corbyn and the support for him. 

[Captain Howdy 1,867]

1 hour ago, Strontium said:

The chairs of West Ham and East Ham CLPs have both resigned, obviously upset that Labour is leading in the polls by 10 points.

 

This bit, however, has me wondering if it's supposed to be satire:

 

 

MOST SUCCESSFUL PARTY LEADER IN LIVING MEMORY

I’d imagine it’s an obvious show of saying they don’t recognise Blair. With that said it would also mean that the same is true of Brown as he never actually lost the election insofar as FPTP goes, same as Corbyn in 2017 although Brown never took a subsequent shoeing. 

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

2 hours ago, Strontium said:

MOST SUCCESSFUL PARTY LEADER IN LIVING MEMORY

I actually missed this somehow. I mean, if that's the playing field we are on, if he was more successful in their view than Blair and Brown who were in government for 13 years, then we clearly have a very different definition of success. My view of success is getting your policies - the ones you think are going to help people - into place by being in government. I'm not sure what theirs is, but I can only assume it's a mixture of 'close to a chance of a coalition but not as close as the Tories were to getting a majority as we lost by 55 seats' and 'massive loss in landslide victory for the Tories, enabling a blustering moron to fuck up the country virtually unopposed'. Great success. 

 

 

 

[Bjornebye 33,148]

Corbyn is probably the most successful labour leader in highlighting the atrocities being committed at home and abroad so there is that. 

 

 

None of this helps Labour. Tories need to be gone at all costs, if that means leaving Corbyn out of it (because we know what will happen if he gets the whip re-instated) then so be it. Decent human beings know what Corbyn is about and he can hold his head high. 

[Gnasher 2,588]

 

[Gnasher 2,588]

On 28/01/2022 at 00:12, Numero Veinticinco said:

You could argue all of those things with great utility, but what people can't legitimately say is that they want the Tories out whilst voting in a way that makes it harder for the Tories to be beaten. I genuinely don't think any sort of lead will be good enough for some. 5 points, 10 points, 20 points. It doesn't really matter to some, and it's their prerogative to think what they like. I guess it just rankles when many of the same people didn't seem particularly bothered when the last leader had a 22 point gap with the Tories. I dunno, I just feel like if somebody is okay with a 22 point deficit (and blame everyone else for it) then dismiss a 10 point lead... it's probably not about the Tories. Again, that's their choice. I just don't agree with it.

They've said they'll keep the 20 quid uplift (calling it an attack on the poorest) then scrap Universal Credit all together and replace it with something better. Like you, I've been dismayed at how some people have been left to suffer. I just know the way out of it isn't to help keep the Tories in power. At least for my vote. I genuinely think those saying they're just the same thing are misguided. Anyway, there's lots of time for everything to swing one way or the other. There's not much Labour can really do beyond trying to remain a credible alternative in the eyes of the electorate. All of the electorate. I guess we're going to see if he can pull it off or not. Lots of shit can happen between then and now. 

Hello Numero hope all's good.

 

On Starmer, i think he's making the same long term mistake as Corbs in not trying to unite the party, he's also filled his cabinet with a narrow political range, no one as bad as Diane Abbot but Rachel Reeves is trying her best. You can indeed point to recent fairly favourable poll ratings although after a solid three months of various government scandals, one involving the Queen and now one involving the police I'd have hoped for a constant double figure lead, i didn't agree with the Blair quip 'come on we should be 20 points ahead' but I've never known a government to constantly be in such trouble so I'm finding the recent polls underwhelming. I'm not critical at all of Starmer for his hoc appearances or his response to the governments recent woes, I think he's been solid and measured and has stuck the right tone.

 

I think Labours problem goes deeper. You say Starmer is trying to appeal to "all the electorate" He's certainly trying to appeal to the centre, his capture of that Tory mp shows thats bearing some fruit, but at what cost.. ie we've heard above from some good posters dismayed by the Labour stance on the 5 million receiving universal credit, I expect many in the country feel the same, he's also losing core votes from other areas, the traditional left being another and Britain's Muslim vote as highlighted in the poll below being yet another,

 

 

Starmer seems as dogmatic in the one way as Corbyn was the other, it cost Corbyn and imo it'll cost Starmer. Imo he desperately needed to do what he promised and at least try to unite the party. Scotland and more recently Bristol show the danger of appearing to disregard your core vote, once they go they're difficult to lure back.

 

You're obviously right about how things can change quickly, Labour are losing both money and members, my fear is this could be as good as it gets for Labour and the Conservatives will get get their act together in the coming year, hope not but we'll see.

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

Blair said 20 points in the polls about where Corbyn should have been, at that time, with another leader. Since then, Labour lost an election so badly that talk of 20 point leads are fantasy. It was useful for the dogmatic left to use as a stick to beat Starmer with though, as if a swing from 22 points behind to 20 points in front is somehow a reasonable objective in a couple of years of leadership. People can say it’s not enough until they’re blue on the face but the truth is that some people wouldn’t be happy with 20. Or 30. Or 50. Or 100. They see Corbyn as some bastion of hope and the most successful Labour leader in living memory and Starmer as just right of Thatcher. You will never impress those people because they’re not living in the real world. There’s no uniting with people who live in a different universe. They just spluge made up nonsense and they are convinced it’s true. These people would sooner lose an election than move an inch from their position. That’s their right, but I find it hard to listen to them criticise the Tories when they have no real interest in getting them out. 
 

I’d be more than happy for Starmer to go and be replaced by somebody who can unite the party AND speak to the country as a whole. That person doesn’t exist. For now, Starmer has to keep crawling forward, inch by inch, with a gap in the commons so big he has virtually no power at all. He is pissing into the wind no matter what he does. So fuck it, let the Tories annihilate themselves and let those who saw Johnson as fit for office see exactly what they voted for. They must still it for themselves, you can’t force them to realise their mistake by shouting at them, it just entrenches them further. I said a couple of years ago when some were saying Starmer should be ranting and raving at the Tories that the best way to start offering yourself as a credible alternative is to keep your head down, start coming up with a policy initiative to win votes in the next election and in the build-up to the next election, that’s when you come out on the offensive. He most likely won’t be fighting Johnson at the next election. He has little choice but to let it play out. Labour had and still has a massive credibility problem after the Corbyn years. Whoever is at fault for that - the media, the voters, the right of Labour, or Corbyn - it doesn’t actually matter, it’s there. As much as people want a leader to wave a magic want and make everything perfect, it just isn’t going to happen, so marginal gains is where it’s at for the next couple of years. 

[Bjornebye 33,148]

1 hour ago, Gnasher said:

Hello Numero hope all's good.

 

On Starmer, i think he's making the same long term mistake as Corbs in not trying to unite the party, he's also filled his cabinet with a narrow political range, no one as bad as Diane Abbot but Rachel Reeves is trying her best. You can indeed point to recent fairly favourable poll ratings although after a solid three months of various government scandals, one involving the Queen and now one involving the police I'd have hoped for a constant double figure lead, i didn't agree with the Blair quip 'come on we should be 20 points ahead' but I've never known a government to constantly be in such trouble so I'm finding the recent polls underwhelming. I'm not critical at all of Starmer for his hoc appearances or his response to the governments recent woes, I think he's been solid and measured and has stuck the right tone.

 

I think Labours problem goes deeper. You say Starmer is trying to appeal to "all the electorate" He's certainly trying to appeal to the centre, his capture of that Tory mp shows thats bearing some fruit, but at what cost.. ie we've heard above from some good posters dismayed by the Labour stance on the 5 million receiving universal credit, I expect many in the country feel the same, he's also losing core votes from other areas, the traditional left being another and Britain's Muslim vote as highlighted in the poll below being yet another,

 

 

Starmer seems as dogmatic in the one way as Corbyn was the other, it cost Corbyn and imo it'll cost Starmer. Imo he desperately needed to do what he promised and at least try to unite the party. Scotland and more recently Bristol show the danger of appearing to disregard your core vote, once they go they're difficult to lure back.

 

You're obviously right about how things can change quickly, Labour are losing both money and members, my fear is this could be as good as it gets for Labour and the Conservatives will get get their act together in the coming year, hope not but we'll see.

The “liberals” clearly gaining trust amongst the Muslims. Not. They should be sued for false advertising. 

[Gnasher 2,588]

Regarding Blair and the 20 points ahead quip. Corbyn was approx 4-6% ahead in the polls when Blair made his "Labour should be 20 points ahead" in the polls quote. The cynics might say he used the throwaway quip to pour cold water on Labours better than expected showing in the previous election. 

 

Blair however imo did have a point saying Labour should have been further ahead in the polls considering Mays floundering government, although her woes had nothing on this present government's prediction, starting with wallpapergate and now a continuous scandal that's involved the Met and the Queen..if Blair was using Mays shambolic government as a barometer of how far Labour should be ahead in the polls we can only conclude he think we should be off the scale looking at the mess Johnson and his mob are in. 

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tony-blair-labour-should-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-conservatives

 

In light of this government's continued disastrous stewardship I'd expect Labour to do slightly better than making small gains.

 

Edit; what will push Labour into a bigger poll lead is if the economy bombs and the cost of living goes through the roof, the torys have had good fortune with the economy but this government is certainly trying to rectify its good luck, they seem determined to fuck up everything they touch, that's where the Starmer/Labour steady and sensible approach will gain traction, I hope.

[Numero Veinticinco 7,786]

19 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Regarding Blair and the 20 points ahead quip. Corbyn was approx 4-6% ahead in the polls when Blair made his "Labour should be 20 points ahead" in the polls quote. The cynics might say he used the throwaway quip to pour cold water on Labours better than expected showing in the previous election. 

 

Blair however imo did have a point saying Labour should have been further ahead in the polls considering Mays floundering government, although her woes had nothing on this present government's prediction, starting with wallpapergate and now a continuous scandal that's involved the Met and the Queen..if Blair was using Mays shambolic government as a barometer of how far Labour should be ahead in the polls we can only conclude he think we should be off the scale looking at the mess Johnson and his mob are in. 

 

https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/tony-blair-labour-should-be-20-points-ahead-of-the-conservatives

 

In light of this government's continued disastrous stewardship I'd expect Labour to do slightly better than making small gains.

Marginal gains make big gains when you keep making them. That’s how Labour have gone from 22 points behind to 10 points ahead without really offering anything substantial yet. That, I’m sure we agree, isn’t a small gain. It’s the least exciting option but it’s also the one that doesn’t alienate the voters he needs to win an election. Winning back the Corbynites isn’t on the cards. He clearly inherited a shit show from the leaders who came before, not just Corbyn. There’s no way you can just click your fingers and fix that. I’m fact, I don’t think the Labour Party can survive as one entity. I was naive to think he could even come close to uniting the party. If he actually believed it then he was naive too. As soon as he started making moves to win votes, he was always going to get called a Tory. 
 

I hope Corbyn does indeed offer an alternative and start his own party. As the most successful Labour leader in living memory, he surely has a fair shot at making it work? That way there’s a genuine alternative to what some see as Tory-lite Labour, offering all the values of the old Labour. I’m not convinced old Labour has been that popular with the electorate for a very long time. It’s almost as if globalisation isn’t a thing. Still, in a democracy there should be choice. If he can unite the left, merge a few fringe parties together, get the Corbyn and Galloway dream team back and rolling, who knows what can happen. 

[Gnasher 2,588]

 

 

[Arniepie 601]

 

Surely one of the biggest issues is that there was only 1 side guilty of civil war in the labour party?Im no corbyn acolyte but the way he was undermined and treated was an absolute disgrace and I cant Blame people for not letting go.

Starmers no 1 aim was to unite the party and from an outsiders perspective,he has done the exact opposite. 

Until thus never ending cycle is broken, they are going to remain a mess.

I thought at one point there would be a breakaway party but then you look at the last election and you just cant see how popular they would be.

2017 have us hope, yet 2 years later that was completely destroyed.

[Strontium 10,973]

On 30/01/2022 at 10:03, Gnasher said:

he's also losing core votes from other areas, the traditional left being another and Britain's Muslim vote as highlighted in the poll below being yet another,

 

 

 

This is not a "poll", it was a Twitter survey. It has zero value.

[Gnasher 2,588]

30 minutes ago, Strontium said:

 

This is not a "poll", it was a Twitter survey. It has zero value.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows

[Strontium 10,973]

6 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/14/muslim-support-for-labour-party-falling-polling-shows

 

Congratulations on discovering what a real poll looks like, and that it shows Muslim support for Labour at 72%, not 40% as claimed in your voodoo poll.