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Keir Starmer

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56 minutes ago, Numero said:

Back in the real world 

 

 

 

Wait till the free prop up money stops being given out and the effects of a bad Brexit deal start hitting people's pockets. Then we'll be back in the real world.

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17 hours ago, Section_31 said:

The S*n stuff is shit but the constant fixation with Blair genuinely baffles me, it seems to have totally exploded under Corbyn. I don't remember Ed Miliband or Brown (!) being arsed about him, he also won an election after the Iraq War, so seemingly  the British public weren't that arsed either. 

 

Wrong. Gordon Brown was infact very "arsed" with Tony Blair it's common knowledge.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blair-brown-war-two-fronts-1897146.html

 

 

Tony Blair did indeed win an election after the Iraq war although Labours majority was slashed to approx 67 seats from 167 against a conservative party that was in disarray. The only main party to oppose the Iraq war was the liberals who had their best result for decades and won approx 62 seats. Your last comment about the British public not being that arsed seems to be born out of the need to take another bizarre swipe at Jeremy Corbyn but as the old saying goes 'blind fury often leads to irrational thought. 

 

 

 

https://www.counterfire.org/articles/history/19460-15-years-on-from-the-biggest-protest-in-british-history

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

I bet if you got a machine learning algorithm and went through a lot of Labour social media/blogs etc that support Corbyn, Blair would be the biggest name in that word cloud, far bigger than May, Cameron, Osborne, Clegg, Johnson and all the rest of it. A lot of the same people seem strangely fixated with Biden too. 

 

It's become trendy to bash him, but the fact remains he's the only Labour leader to win an election in my lifetime - and I'm now legally too old to join the Airforce. 

 

Comparisons between New Labour and Tory Lite are lazy too. I lived under the Tories, then under New Labour, then under the Tories again. Living under New Labour was quite considerably better. 

 

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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Wrong. Gordon Brown was infact very "arsed" with Tony Blair it's common knowledge.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blair-brown-war-two-fronts-1897146.html

 

 

Tony Blair did indeed win an election after the Iraq war although Labours majority was slashed to approx 67 seats from 167 against a conservative party that was in disarray. The only main party to oppose the Iraq war was the liberals who had their best result for decades and won approx 62 seats. Your last comment about the British public not being that arsed seems to be born out of the need to take another bizarre swipe at Jeremy Corbyn but as the old saying goes 'blind fury often leads to irrational thought. 

 

 

 

https://www.counterfire.org/articles/history/19460-15-years-on-from-the-biggest-protest-in-british-history

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking back on the 2005 election its interesting that as Labour lurched more to the right they haemorrhaged votes, they lost a hundred seats in Blairs last election as leader. The liberal party meanwhile under Charlie Kennedy positioned themselves to the left and had their best result in a generation. Although the fallout from the Iraq war may have skewed voting behaviour.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/02/charles-kennedy-left-labour-true-liberal

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I can understand people with strong ideals refusing to drift with the circumstances and drawing their line in the sand but these are dangerous times with a dangerous tory government, god help us if Johnson and Gove get a free eight year run. Hopefully they'll fuck it up so much in the next few years that their demise becomes inevitable. As Harold Wilson used to say, the public dont vote governments in they vote them out. I always remember as a kid mucking about outside a polling booth and a tv crew asked an old lady who dressed in red with the bunting and labour rosettes was she was obviously voting Labour 'oh definitely 100% " she said, what is it you like about labour, the reporter then asked "oh nothing' said the old woman  "I just can't stand the other cunts" 

 

I think at the next election I'll hold my nose and do the same.

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I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

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19 hours ago, sir roger said:

a complicit government involved in @ 80k deaths.

I think a lot of people prefer to see a brave Government doing their best in a terrible situation  (ignoring the litany of corruption and deadly negligence).

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3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

The left are more likely to moan on Twitter, whereas the right end up on the news or in the papers complaining.

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5 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I think a lot of people prefer to see a brave Government doing their best in a terrible situation  (ignoring the litany of corruption and deadly negligence).

And one who rightly dishes them out money.

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14 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

The left are more likely to moan on Twitter, whereas the right end up on the news or in the papers complaining.

Whereas the right coordinate with the news and papers to cause as much damage as possible.  

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57 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

I think the issue is that unless Momentum and those types split and create their own party, there is no vehicle to rally behind for a left wing socialist cause. 

 

The whole thing just depresses me to be honest for a couple of reasons

 

1. Doesn't matter what happens the government is getting elected again

2. Jeremy Corbyn and his politics (for whatever reason) was rejected and to bang that particular drum again will not advance matters

3. The last Labour leader to be elected was Tony Blair so what does that tell you about this country?

 

I believe Starmer is playing the right cards, doing the right thing. I say this slightly through gritted teeth because I want him to be more aggressive, but if he does that, see point number one. 

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7 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

I think the issue is that unless Momentum and those types split and create their own party, there is no vehicle to rally behind for a left wing socialist cause. 

 

The whole thing just depresses me to be honest for a couple of reasons

 

1. Doesn't matter what happens the government is getting elected again

2. Jeremy Corbyn and his politics (for whatever reason) was rejected and to bang that particular drum again will not advance matters

3. The last Labour leader to be elected was Tony Blair so what does that tell you about this country?

 

I believe Starmer is playing the right cards, doing the right thing. I say this slightly through gritted teeth because I want him to be more aggressive, but if he does that, see point number one. 

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

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16 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

Fundamentally we live in a Conservative country, its in the blood of the country. It holds mostly centre-right views on immigration, taxes, patriotism and such likes. 

 

Your stance on Starmer, is very much the stance I think Momentum took with the rest of the working class, but it took support for Corbyn for granted. Everyone said Corbyn did very badly on the door step for a variety of different reasons. Corbyn's message resonated with a demographic of society which was not representative of the challenges, issues and concerns of the traditional working class voter, so much so that we ended up in the situation we did the other year with a massive Tory majority. 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

Obviously, the media in this country is mainly shit and right wing and that's always going to be an issue with any progressive politician, especially a leader of the Labour Party.

In many ways how the politician comes to terms with this fact and how him/her deals with it will define their success.

I voted for Jeremy twice and he had many good points. Being  a leader wasn't one of them nor was coming to terms with the media.

Dealing with the Media successfully is a key part of the job... if you can't do it well you're in the wrong job.

Keir, for me, isn't being as pro active as I would like and is saying idiotic things re Brexit and Europe.

It's still early days and I'm hoping he will grow into the role... think he's dealing with Press alright and hope he will become less timid

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People need to remember we are in the midst of a national crisis, so there is a limit to how much partisan stuff anyone can get away with before it's seen as indecent. Obviously when this is all over, I'd expect the gloves to come off.

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56 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

Fundamentally we live in a Conservative country, its in the blood of the country. It holds mostly centre-right views on immigration, taxes, patriotism and such likes. 

 

Your stance on Starmer, is very much the stance I think Momentum took with the rest of the working class, but it took support for Corbyn for granted. Everyone said Corbyn did very badly on the door step for a variety of different reasons. Corbyn's message resonated with a demographic of society which was not representative of the challenges, issues and concerns of the traditional working class voter, so much so that we ended up in the situation we did the other year with a massive Tory majority. 

 

 

 

 

 

Labour's message was not allowed to resonate with anyone thanks to a deluge of personal attacks on the leader of the party. In fact, anyone on the left of the party was set upon (Diane Abbott for example). Labour's free broadband policy for instance, derided at the time as "communism" isn't looking so stupid now, but thats what people were led to believe.

 

Brexit was a big factor in Labour's poor results in the working class areas of the North too. The deliberate muddying of Labour's position on Brexit (which was to respect the result) by the media and certain members of the party was certainly unhelpful. Whilst I disagree with them, people who voted Brexit having done a little research other than what they've been told by the red tops or the Mail (I don't imagine that's many) have a lot more of my respect than some fucking morons mumbling on about immigrants, taking back control or getting brexit done.

 

Again, what I'm trying to say is that, while we have the media ownership we have in this country, the left are pissing into the wind.

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Good post Rushing tash. Regarding your last point, it's something that annoyed me about Corbyn and his team. They took a half way measure and it was never going to work. They should have either sucked off the media, or eviscerated them at every opportunity. In the end they did neither and predictably got no where as the media neither liked them (or more accurately, found them useful) nor feared them. They just allowed themselves to be smeared, lied about, exaggerated, ridiculed, etc. It was pathetic. 

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1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

People need to remember we are in the midst of a national crisis, so there is a limit to how much partisan stuff anyone can get away with before it's seen as indecent. Obviously when this is all over, I'd expect the gloves to come off.

That could be read as a criticism of "partisan stuff" coming from either wing of the party.

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27 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Labour's message was not allowed to resonate with anyone thanks to a deluge of personal attacks on the leader of the party. In fact, anyone on the left of the party was set upon (Diane Abbott for example). Labour's free broadband policy for instance, derided at the time as "communism" isn't looking so stupid now, but thats what people were led to believe.

 

Brexit was a big factor in Labour's poor results in the working class areas of the North too. The deliberate muddying of Labour's position on Brexit (which was to respect the result) by the media and certain members of the party was certainly unhelpful. Whilst I disagree with them, people who voted Brexit having done a little research other than what they've been told by the red tops or the Mail (I don't imagine that's many) have a lot more of my respect than some fucking morons mumbling on about immigrants, taking back control or getting brexit done.

 

Again, what I'm trying to say is that, while we have the media ownership we have in this country, the left are pissing into the wind.

Spot on, I agree with this. Its difficult to be anywhere near to the left with the media as they are in this country.

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10 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Good post Rushing tash. Regarding your last point, it's something that annoyed me about Corbyn and his team. They took a half way measure and it was never going to work. They should have either sucked off the media, or eviscerated them at every opportunity. In the end they did neither and predictably got no where as the media neither liked them (or more accurately, found them useful) nor feared them. They just allowed themselves to be smeared, lied about, exaggerated, ridiculed, etc. It was pathetic. 

Agreed. I'm not 'cult of Corbyn' by any means, and one of my criticisms would be his and the leadership at the time not engaging the media enough (or in the right ways). Whether that was by design or whether the media weren't interested in conveying the message, I'm not sure.

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