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Keir Starmer

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2 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I can't even be arsed looking for the proof but "Keith" was getting loads of shit LONG before Corbyn was suspended, pretty much from word go and even before. Stories about him in the canary being in league with MI5 to create a surveillance state, the usual knobheads making a big deal of the fact he was a  'Sir' or a middle class/establishment goon, to crazy stuff about him being somehow responsible for the Rotherham grooming scandal and Jimmy Saville.

 

As with Corbyn, all genuine criticism of him is lost in the madness. Russian hats, KGB asset and whatnot. This is one of the ironies of the situation, many Corbyn supporters subject Starmer to a lot of the shit Corbyn himself was subjected to.

Is the Canary that relevant though? Genuinely? They are hardly mainstream. Compere to a front bench resignation which is then reported by Kuenssberg on bbc news for instance. I might be wrong as I dont read it and I'd guess the average Joe doesn't either.

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Q: Tony Blair has been talking to Matt Hancock about how to handle Covid. Do you welcome that? Would you take advice from him, and would you like to see him back in frontline politics?

 

Starmer says everyone needs to step up. The more advice the government gets, the better. He says Blair’s thinktank has done a lot of work on this.

Starmer congratulates the questioner, the Sun’s Kate Ferguson, on her recent promotion.

 

*vomits*

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Q: Have you spoken to Tony Blair about Covid? Would you give him a job in a Labour government?

 

Starmer says he has spoken to many people about Covid, including Tony Blair.

 

Q: How do you want to see debt reduced in the long term?

 

Starmer says in the long term this will have to be addressed.

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3 hours ago, The Guest said:

I take it back.  I actually thought you were intelligent and maybe you were just one of these grifter types but you’re actually just that thick.

 

I know the word Corbyn seems to send you into some sort of mental episode when you see it so I’ll try not to use it too much. Corbyn changed the landscape of British politics.  Before he came into power Labour were abstaining on austerity measures and being out-lefted on manifestos by the Liberal Democrats.  The conversation about raising taxes or reducing/abolishing tuition fees wasn’t even an after thought for the cunts running the party and it was haemorrhaging votes which is the whole reason they opened up the “left” conversation with the whole party.  It then took a massive amount of McCarthyite smearing over years and getting into bed with the tories to try to destroy him.  Throughout the whole period he forced the conversation left and defeated the tories in parliament a laughable number of times.

 

Labour occupying the centre right position means the tories shift right.  It’s just a fact evidenced over years in British politics.  The fact you just flat out deny it’s happening ends the conversation for me.  It’s going to take you to educate yourself and have that lightbulb moment before you can evolve.

 

You might have missed the last election

It was Labour's worst performance since 1932 and gave the Tories an 80 seat majority

 

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3 hours ago, The Guest said:

I take it back.  I actually thought you were intelligent and maybe you were just one of these grifter types but you’re actually just that thick.

 

I know the word Corbyn seems to send you into some sort of mental episode when you see it so I’ll try not to use it too much. Corbyn changed the landscape of British politics.  Before he came into power Labour were abstaining on austerity measures and being out-lefted on manifestos by the Liberal Democrats.  The conversation about raising taxes or reducing/abolishing tuition fees wasn’t even an after thought for the cunts running the party and it was haemorrhaging votes which is the whole reason they opened up the “left” conversation with the whole party.  It then took a massive amount of McCarthyite smearing over years and getting into bed with the tories to try to destroy him.  Throughout the whole period he forced the conversation left and defeated the tories in parliament a laughable number of times.

 

Labour occupying the centre right position means the tories shift right.  It’s just a fact evidenced over years in British politics.  The fact you just flat out deny it’s happening ends the conversation for me.  It’s going to take you to educate yourself and have that lightbulb moment before you can evolve.

 

Winning without winning.

 

There's a whole thread in the FF for this kind of rubbish. 

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1 minute ago, mattyq said:

You might have missed the last election

It was Labour's worst performance since 1932 and gave the Tories an 80 seat majority

 

You must have missed the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes undermining the left leaning leadership for 4 years.  You must have missed The EU referendum.  You must also have missed the same snakes forcing the party to adopt a second referendum into the manifesto knowing it would completely tank the party at the general election.  You must have missed the same snakes aren’t remotely bothered about rejoining the EU or campaigning for freedom of movement now they’ve regained control of the party.  Risking a no deal brexit at worst and a Johnson led EU deal at best was a small price to pay to get the left out of the leadership.

 

Taking all of this out of the equation anyway my point still stands.  Losing elections but standing on a left leaning platform will stop the Overton window continuously moving to the right.  The general population will be able to clearly see when things go wrong because of right wing ideas that they can vote for the left wing alternative.  Instead what you have is things going wrong because of right wing ideas and Labour getting the blame.  The likelihood is that if labour had never shifted right then the worst the tories would be is run by someone that is the equivalent of Starmer or Blair.  Now they are the “best option” despite the majority of the country sitting further left economically than either of them.  Following down this path is just going to mean the Labour Party continually moving right. Complete idiots pretending like it isn’t happening doesn’t change the fact that it is.  

 

Once you’ve got your head out of your arse and educated yourself on all of that come back and we can have a conversation.

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The S*n stuff is shit but the constant fixation with Blair genuinely baffles me, it seems to have totally exploded under Corbyn. I don't remember Ed Miliband or Brown (!) being arsed about him, he also won an election after the Iraq War, so seemingly  the British public weren't that arsed either. 

 

I bet if you got a machine learning algorithm and went through a lot of Labour social media/blogs etc that support Corbyn, Blair would be the biggest name in that word cloud, far bigger than May, Cameron, Osborne, Clegg, Johnson and all the rest of it. A lot of the same people seem strangely fixated with Biden too. 

 

It's become trendy to bash him, but the fact remains he's the only Labour leader to win an election in my lifetime - and I'm now legally too old to join the Airforce. 

 

Comparisons between New Labour and Tory Lite are lazy too. I lived under the Tories, then under New Labour, then under the Tories again. Living under New Labour was quite considerably better. 

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16 minutes ago, The Guest said:

You must have missed the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes undermining the left leaning leadership for 4 years.  You must have missed The EU referendum.  You must also have missed the same snakes forcing the party to adopt a second referendum into the manifesto knowing it would completely tank the party at the general election.  You must have missed the same snakes aren’t remotely bothered about rejoining the EU or campaigning for freedom of movement now they’ve regained control of the party.  Risking a no deal brexit at worst and a Johnson led EU deal at best was a small price to pay to get the left out of the leadership.

 

Taking all of this out of the equation anyway my point still stands.  Losing elections but standing on a left leaning platform will stop the Overton window continuously moving to the right.  The general population will be able to clearly see when things go wrong because of right wing ideas that they can vote for the left wing alternative.  Instead what you have is things going wrong because of right wing ideas and Labour getting the blame.  The likelihood is that if labour had never shifted right then the worst the tories would be is run by someone that is the equivalent of Starmer or Blair.  Now they are the “best option” despite the majority of the country sitting further left economically than either of them.  Following down this path is just going to mean the Labour Party continually moving right. Complete idiots pretending like it isn’t happening doesn’t change the fact that it is.  

 

Once you’ve got your head out of your arse and educated yourself on all of that come back and we can have a conversation.

 Majority, that elected said leader?

 

Come on, even you must realise how silly that sounds and looks.

 

So the majority turned on him after they had voted for him, twice?

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Comparisons between New Labour and Tory Lite are lazy too. I lived under the Tories, then under New Labour, then under the Tories again. Living under New Labour was quite considerably better. 

Early New Labour was far better than present day Tory but the economic landscape was vastly different , and let's not forget that by 2015 New Labour was facilitating austerity and bragging that we would be tougher on immigration.

 

As for Blair he doesn't really register that much other than me reading his thoughts constantly in the Guardian / Indy and thinking he is a cheeky and unself-aware twat lecturing people on anything that moves. More against the real slime of that era like Mandelson and Blunkett to be honest.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

 Majority, that elected said leader?

 

Come on, even you must realise how silly that sounds and looks.

 

 

Do you know how Labour Leaders are elected , are you thinking of the Tories ?

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8 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Do you know how Labour Leaders are elected , are you thinking of the Tories ?


Yes, by party members, he won two leadership contests. I voted for him in both.

 

Now I’m sure all those rabid ‘right wingers’ did the same, until it came to the real plan, to have the ‘majority’ conspire against him and him run a disastrous campaign that anybody with a ounce of prescience could see coming a mile off. 

 

Bollocks and sounds conspiracy worthy at this point.

 

He lost because the campaign was shit and the British public reject him for a myriad of reasons, get fucking over it.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Bruce Spanner said:


Yes, by party members, he won two leadership contest. I voted for him in both.

So how does that equate with your suggestion it means he he had the backing of the the majority of the PLP 

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1 minute ago, sir roger said:

So how does that equate with your suggestion it means he he had the backing of the the majority of the PLP 


The suggestion was, from another poster, that the majority of the PLP were to quote ‘majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes‘ which isn’t just stupid, it’s logically impossible as he was elected by the very same people, twice.

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15 minutes ago, The Guest said:

You must have missed the majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes undermining the left leaning leadership for 4 years.  You must have missed The EU referendum.  You must also have missed the same snakes forcing the party to adopt a second referendum into the manifesto knowing it would completely tank the party at the general election.  You must have missed the same snakes aren’t remotely bothered about rejoining the EU or campaigning for freedom of movement now they’ve regained control of the party.  Risking a no deal brexit at worst and a Johnson led EU deal at best was a small price to pay to get the left out of the leadership.

 

Taking all of this out of the equation anyway my point still stands.  Losing elections but standing on a left leaning platform will stop the Overton window continuously moving to the right.  The general population will be able to clearly see when things go wrong because of right wing ideas that they can vote for the left wing alternative.  Instead what you have is things going wrong because of right wing ideas and Labour getting the blame.  The likelihood is that if labour had never shifted right then the worst the tories would be is run by someone that is the equivalent of Starmer or Blair.  Now they are the “best option” despite the majority of the country sitting further left economically than either of them.  Following down this path is just going to mean the Labour Party continually moving right. Complete idiots pretending like it isn’t happening doesn’t change the fact that it is.  

 

Once you’ve got your head out of your arse and educated yourself on all of that come back and we can have a conversation.

"Losing elections but standing on a left leaning platform will stop the Overton window continuously moving to the right"

 

I almost fell off my seat when I read that

It's got to be one of the daftest things I've ever seen... it's really quite endearing 

 

1. The Corbyn led Labour Party had a reasonably left leaning platform

2. The Overton window might or might not have shifted leftwards

3. This current Government have shifted Rightwards and don't give a flying fuck about the Overton Window

4. When you lose the election you don't get a prize for Overton Window shiftage. It just means that none of your policies will be implemented and you'll have 5 more years of the Tories who can do what they want

5. The aim is to form a Government and then you can do all your good stuff. If you lose you can't

6. The choice is Tory or Lab unless, of course, you live in Scotland or Norn Ire

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3 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

The S*n stuff is shit but the constant fixation with Blair genuinely baffles me, it seems to have totally exploded under Corbyn. I don't remember Ed Miliband or Brown (!) being arsed about him, he also won an election after the Iraq War, so seemingly  the British public weren't that arsed either. 

 

I bet if you got a machine learning algorithm and went through a lot of Labour social media/blogs etc that support Corbyn, Blair would be the biggest name in that word cloud, far bigger than May, Cameron, Osborne, Clegg, Johnson and all the rest of it. A lot of the same people seem strangely fixated with Biden too. 

 

It's become trendy to bash him, but the fact remains he's the only Labour leader to win an election in my lifetime - and I'm now legally too old to join the Airforce. 

 

Comparisons between New Labour and Tory Lite are lazy too. I lived under the Tories, then under New Labour, then under the Tories again. Living under New Labour was quite considerably better. 

The reality is that you’re actually a Tory you just can’t or won’t admit it to yourself.  You’re happy for the taxes to stay as they are or get even more in favour of rich people and for the elites to walk away with public money.  You’re happy for the burden of higher education to be placed on individuals with a decision they will make as a child regardless of how that impacts the demographics of the country.  You’re happy for private finance to come into schooling and healthcare probably all because you don’t think it effects you.  That’s okay because it’s a political position but it’s a Tory one.


Tory Lite isn’t a political party.  It isn’t something getting “compared” with new labour.  It’s a phrase to describe political policies which new labour chose to implement that are centre right and they are undeniable because they fucking happened.

 

The vast majority of peoples lives did not “change” when the parties traded power over the years.  I’m surprised a grown man can actually sum his own life up in that manner.  It’s actually fucking hysterical when you think about it.  “My life was great when I got all these fat loans as a teenager and in my twenties to go out partying in uni.  It’s just now years later when I’ve got to work and pay it all back.  Labour were in charge before so I’ll vote for them my life will be better.”  It’s so fucking stupid it’s difficult to know where to start.

 

Labour come up with some ingenious but snide right wing ways of boosting the economy.  They encouraged the majority of school leavers into university even though there was not the jobs for that level of qualification when they all finished.  It kept the unemployment level down and they paid for it by putting the cost on the kids going.  They told everyone they would never increase the cost above a thousand a year but then increased it to 3 and told everyone they meant they would never increase it in that 4 year term.  Good one. GBOL.  
 

They introduced private finance in schooling and the nhs.  It’s complicated and I can’t be arsed writing it all out but they essentially made the nhs better in the short term and kicked the can down the road so somebody else would have to pay for it later.  There’s plenty of documentaries on it.  The academies situation is beyond a joke.

 

Your life as an individual doesn’t necessarily change because of political parties changing power.  Mainly because you’ve never experienced that time of your life before.  If you’re sitting there though and you’re comfortable but you’re still happy with what Labour started and therefore allowed to the tories to expand on then you’re either completely thick or a selfish cunt who’s going to get bitten in the arse probably when you need a hospital bed at some point.

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11 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:


The suggestion was, from another poster, that the majority of the PLP were to quote ‘majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes‘ which isn’t just stupid, it’s logically impossible as he was elected by the very same people, twice.

It’s quite astonishing just how stupid you are.  Like mind boggling.

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8 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:


The suggestion was, from another poster, that the majority of the PLP were to quote ‘majority of the Parliamentary Labour Party being centre right snakes‘ which isn’t just stupid, it’s logically impossible as he was elected by the very same people, twice.

???  He wasn't , the PLP is the MPs

He was backed by about 20 odd mp's to join the race each time but then it was down to the members.The vast majority of the mps hated him from the off and didnt try to hide it

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9 minutes ago, The Guest said:

It’s quite astonishing just how stupid you are.  Like mind boggling.


Then tell me, genius, how, to quote yourself a majority who are vehemently opposed to something can not only vote for it once, but twice?

 

This has been amended, my mistake.

 

Now for the rest, go fuck your self you idiotic conspiracy paddler, get off the internet, engage with the real world and see how fucking dumb, deluded and wrong you fucking are.

 

You are nothing more than a product of a self defeating echo chamber and it’s genuinely pathetic to see people sucked in to this bullshit. 

 

This still stands.

 

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5 minutes ago, sir roger said:

???  He wasn't , the PLP is the MPs

He was backed by about 20 odd mp's to join the race each time but then it was down to the members.The vast majority of the mps hated him from the off and didnt try to hide it


He was voted for by members twice.

 

Sorry, mixed up PLP/CLP my mistake.

 

I take back, in part, but the emphasis stands.

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22 minutes ago, mattyq said:

"Losing elections but standing on a left leaning platform will stop the Overton window continuously moving to the right"

 

I almost fell off my seat when I read that

It's got to be one of the daftest things I've ever seen... it's really quite endearing 

 

1. The Corbyn led Labour Party had a reasonably left leaning platform

2. The Overton window might or might not have shifted leftwards

3. This current Government have shifted Rightwards and don't give a flying fuck about the Overton Window

4. When you lose the election you don't get a prize for Overton Window shiftage. It just means that none of your policies will be implemented and you'll have 5 more years of the Tories who can do what they want

5. The aim is to form a Government and then you can do all your good stuff. If you lose you can't

6. The choice is Tory or Lab unless, of course, you live in Scotland or Norn Ire

I’m not saying they should lose every election.  I’m saying they shouldn’t be scared to lose an election standing on a left leaning platform.  Eventually the right wing party will have to take accountability for right wing ideas and policies because there’s an actual clear alternative in the opposition not just “more of the same” and “nothing fundamentally will change”.  4 years of opposition with a left wing leader being polluted by near enough the whole PLP is not long enough to turn the tide.  Johnson’s Tory party is not the fault of Corbyn.  It’s decades of having a right leaning opposition that’s enabled them to become what they are.

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11 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:


He was voted for by members twice.

 

Sorry, mixed up PLP/CLP my mistake.

 

I take back, in part, but the emphasis stands.

That’s still wrong you complete muppet.  The CLP stands for a constituency Labour Party not the members of the whole party.  Honestly just stop digging, hold your hands up and admit you’re fucking thick and shouldn’t be involved in this conversation.

 

And now I’m a conspiracy theorist.  Brilliant.

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4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I can't even be arsed looking for the proof but "Keith" was getting loads of shit LONG before Corbyn was suspended, pretty much from word go and even before.

 

You keep saying this but I dont think their was. I saved you the bother because you couldn't be arsed so I've had a look myself and I cant find anything of note bar from the odd idiot on twitter.  The labour mps, the left wing commentators and the vast majority of members seemed ok with Starmer being leader. He certainly won by a good margin and was the only realistic candidate. I've found some dissent after the Long Bailey sacking but nothing of note. I cant find a dissenting quote from Corbyn himself against Starmer.

 

The turning point in the onslaught against Starmer has undoubtedly been the removal of Corbyn from the party. It's when a section of labour mps, labour members, political commentators and the trade unions started to seriously question Starmers judgement. It's why the debate is raging away on here. The muffled noise of a small group of idiots on twitter before was irrelevant and carried no weight.

4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

Stories about him in the canary being in league with MI5 to create a surveillance state, the usual knobheads making a big deal of the fact he was a  'Sir' or a middle class/establishment goon, to crazy stuff about him being somehow responsible for the Rotherham grooming scandal and Jimmy Saville.

 

4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

As with Corbyn, all genuine criticism of him is lost in the madness. Russian hats, KGB asset and whatnot. This is one of the ironies of the situation, many Corbyn supporters subject Starmer to a lot of the shit Corbyn himself was subjected to.

 

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