Keir Starmer

[Brownie]

3 minutes ago, Numero said:

In what way is avoiding echo chambers overrated?

It’s over-rated in the sense that people suggest that you should purposely seek out alternative views, without realising that life in general means that you’ll see those views anyway.

 

I don’t follow anyone from the right at all on Twitter but that doesn’t mean that I don’t know what the right are thinking/saying. Twitter is just a social media platform. If people choose to follow stuff they generally agree with then that’s perfectly logical.

 

If you’re going out on a night out you don’t say, “lads, give Steve a bell and see if he wants to come out. I know he’s a racist bellend but we need variety, we can’t just be an echo chamber lads”.

[Bjornebye]

What about those who read both sides? Who don't live in an echo chamber and hear and see both sides of the fence? I mean surely you won't "shakes head" at them people? Oh.... oh hang on.... Throwing up a false bravado act saying it's "their opinion let them have it" then "shakes head" at people who have theirs as well is pure hypocrisy. Read the article I posted about Hartlepool cells then tell me those two pan heads in Hartlepool should have had to pass an aptitude test before they voted. 

[Bruce Spanner]

We, the Philosopher Kings, should be the ultimate arbitrator.

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, Brownie said:

It’s over-rated in the sense that people suggest that you should purposely seek out alternative views, without realising that life in general means that you’ll see those views anyway.

 

I don’t follow anyone from the right at all on Twitter but that doesn’t mean that I don’t know what the right are thinking/saying. Twitter is just a social media platform. If people choose to follow stuff they generally agree with then that’s perfectly logical.

 

If you’re going out on a night out you don’t say, “lads, give Steve a bell and see if he wants to come out. I know he’s a racist bellend but we need variety, we can’t just be an echo chamber lads”.

I don’t think there’s much of a comparison between what I’ve been talking about and going on the piss with a racist. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

5 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

What about those who read both sides? Who don't live in an echo chamber and hear and see both sides of the fence? I mean surely you won't "shakes head" at them people? Oh.... oh hang on.... Throwing up a false bravado act saying it's "their opinion let them have it" then "shakes head" at people who have theirs as well is pure hypocrisy. Read the article I posted about Hartlepool cells then tell me those two pan heads in Hartlepool should have had to pass an aptitude test before they voted. 

I feel like I’ve missed something here. Is that aimed at what I said or something I’ve missed earlier on. I said the thing about echo chambers but I’m not saying people shouldn’t have a view. 
 

#socialistsunday #supportmyfamily #confused #starmeroutbrownin

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Numero said:

I feel like I’ve missed something here. Is that aimed at what I said or something I’ve missed earlier on. I said the thing about echo chambers but I’m not saying people shouldn’t have a view. 
 

#socialistsunday #supportmyfamily #confused #starmeroutbrownin

#itwasn'taimedatyou 

[Gnasher]

1 hour ago, Brownie said:

That’s exactly it. If the stuff it wants to do is not massively popular (left wing policies are though) then try to change the argument, don’t change your own principles to suit the electorate.

 

I’ve been banging on about this for years.

I take your point but Labour are not in a strong enough position to alienate groups of the electorate, because that's what you'll do. How do you square the circle between the large Labour Asian vote and the more traditional working class voters? Or the older industrial Labour voter with the youth and worries over climate change?  Labour are certainly not in a strong enough position to be disregarding groups of their  traditional or potential voters.  Wilson, Blair, Brown all had a lot of political savvy to gauging the mood of the voters, it was only after losing this deftness of touch they came unstuck.

 

I don't envy Starmer as Labour leader is an almost impossible job but he needs to be a lot more fleetfooted in not so dogmatic in future. He or his team seems to act on impulse and doesn't take time to read the room, ie the reshuffle, the Corbyn suspension, the Hartlepool candidate etc. Take Bristol West, Labour candidate loses the west of the city to the greens, Starmer promotes her in the cabinet, unless its a canny plan to get her to spend as less time in her constituency as possible its madness, they don't like her and she'll be out at the next election. Didn't the London wing of the Labour party notice St Greta walking around Bristol last year? Labour needs to be a lot more canny than it has been. Back on subject look at Johnson, reminds me of Harold Wilson, all things to all men, uncomfortable to say but Labour could heed a few lessons of Wilson in being a lot more streetwise.

[Gnasher]

This is an example of modern day Labour not giving a fuck about the voters they will need to win an election. Lost every council seat in her patch, gets a promotion in London. 

 

 

Edit, here's the once mainly red part of Bristol, the part of the city with mainly rented accommodation, students, hipsters, ethnics, rasterferians and drum and bass Djs. The sitting Labour mp has managed to make herself about as popular there as old old Eddy Colston. Shes got a great name mind.

 

 

[Brownie]

29 minutes ago, Numero said:

I don’t think there’s much of a comparison between what I’ve been talking about and going on the piss with a racist. 

Come on mate, you could understand the point I was making.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Brownie said:

Come on mate, you could understand the point I was making.

It’s not that I don’t understand it, it’s that it’s a completely different type of thing, if it was just an entertainment thing then absolutely, fuck the need to get info from elsewhere. You don’t drink with people you don’t like and you don’t watch TV you think is shit or listen to music you hate. That’s a wholly different thing to getting informed views on politics or science or whatever. 

[Brownie]

35 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

What about those who read both sides? Who don't live in an echo chamber and hear and see both sides of the fence? I mean surely you won't "shakes head" at them people? Oh.... oh hang on.... Throwing up a false bravado act saying it's "their opinion let them have it" then "shakes head" at people who have theirs as well is pure hypocrisy. Read the article I posted about Hartlepool cells then tell me those two pan heads in Hartlepool should have had to pass an aptitude test before they voted. 

What are you banging on about now you angry head?!

 

People can say whatever they want. You're quoting some things that haven't even been said.

 

Your attitude to those people is part of the problem. We all know they are misinformed. It's a lot more nuanced than that so just ridiculing them isn't the solution.

[Brownie]

5 minutes ago, Numero said:

It’s not that I don’t understand it, it’s that it’s a completely different type of thing, if it was just an entertainment thing then absolutely, fuck the need to get info from elsewhere. You don’t drink with people you don’t like and you don’t watch TV you think is shit or listen to music you hate. That’s a wholly different thing to getting informed views on politics or science or whatever. 

Talking purely about Twitter (because that was the original topic), it's exactly the same for me. Twitter is entertainment to me. I follow people who entertain me. I don't go looking for stuff on there that I know i'll disagree with.

 

If I want to get some insight into politics then I know where to go.

 

Also, to some, politics is entertainment.

[Section_31]

1 hour ago, Barrington Womble said:

Funnily enough I was thinking similar just the other day listening to the Tory who won Hartlepool bang on about how the people of Hartlepool are sick of "the labour MP letting them down". Like how the fuck can the labour MP do anything for change when for 30 of the last 40 years we've been under Tory rule? And while labour got plenty wrong in their stint in office, they did far.more for deprived areas than any Tory government in my life time. I don't actually know what the answer is, but what's clear is the message labour are getting out and it has been true under all leadership since 2010, is clearly allowing a narrative that somehow this nations failures are on labour. 

Said it loads of times but the fundamental difference between the left and the new right is that the left overestimates how intelligent and generally arsed the general public is. 

 

Corbyn's era was a case in point. They wanted to turn Labour into a people's movement where folks would gather at meetings and put the world to rights, come up with plans of action, campaign and change the country from the ground up, whereas most people were at home looking at pictures of cats on their phone. 

 

The right just tell fib after fib, even when you can see the lie in front of you,  they'll say you're fibbing, and just tell another fib. That's why their manifesto was dumbed down and Corbyn's was biblical.

 

And yet they win. Again and again.

 

The Nazis never came to power by overpowering their enemies, they won power by rousing a mob with lies and using democracy against itself. Was having this conversation with my Mrs yesterday about how they don't teach politics in school. Nobody out there even knows how a council works, or how you go about getting a seat on one. Yet there'll be about two dozen kids currently sat in Eton's classrooms who realistically expect to be Prime Minister. 

 

 

[Bjornebye]

6 minutes ago, Brownie said:

What are you banging on about now you angry head?!

 

People can say whatever they want. You're quoting some things that haven't even been said.

 

Your attitude to those people is part of the problem. We all know they are misinformed. It's a lot more nuanced than that so just ridiculing them isn't the solution.

On a forum that is generally left leaning and generally socialist, me calling them idiots is a problem is it? It's not like I'm walking the streets with a bat twatting anyone who looks a bit gammon. 

 

And as for 'just ridiculing them' well ok I posted an article debunking that bald fellas bullshit so I'm not 'just ridiculing' them. Most aren't. 

[Moo]

2 minutes ago, Brownie said:

What are you banging on about now you angry head?!

 

People can say whatever they want. You're quoting some things that haven't even been said.

 

Your attitude to those people is part of the problem. We all know they are misinformed. It's a lot more nuanced than that so just ridiculing them isn't the solution.

One of the issues is that some of them refuse to be informed, countless times I've tried to have a discussion on a certain aspect of politics (Brexit being the main one) but just been shut down by some sound bite. You get to the point where there's nothing left to do but insult them in frustration. People are making a choice to be misinformed, those people are cunts. 

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Moo said:

One of the issues is that some of them refuse to be informed, countless times I've tried to have a discussion on a certain aspect of politics (Brexit being the main one) but just been shut down by some sound bite. You get to the point where there's nothing left to do but insult them in frustration. People are making a choice to be misinformed, those people are cunts. 

NOOOOO Moo it's now fashionable to stick up for them! Get with the times 

[Brownie]

3 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Said it loads of times but the fundamental difference between the left and the new right is that the left overestimates how intelligent and generally arsed the general public is. 

 

Corbyn's era was a case in point. They wanted to turn Labour into a people's movement where folks would gather at meetings and put the world to rights, come up with plans of action, campaign and change the country from the ground up, whereas most people were at home looking at pictures of cats on their phone. 

 

The right just tell fib after fib, even when you can the lie in front of you,  they'll say you're fibbing, and just tell another fib. That's why their manifesto was dumbed down and Corbyn's was biblical.

 

And yet they win. Again and again.

 

 

Yep. And the problem you have, is that if the left suddenly decided to take the same approach, the right wing media would call it all out as lies (which would be accurate) and it would make things even worse.

 

It's really interesting because the right invented the whole "fake news" thing, which on the face of it was dangerous for them because it should have shone a light on all of their bullshit. But the media has been complicit in the whole illusion of it all.

 

Fake news is actually the definition of "fake news". Amazing, really.

[Brownie]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

NOOOOO Moo it's now fashionable to stick up for them! Get with the times 

Stop acting like a fucking tart will you. I'll agree to completely disagree with you and move on.

[Numero Veinticinco]

6 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Talking purely about Twitter (because that was the original topic), it's exactly the same for me. Twitter is entertainment to me. I follow people who entertain me. I don't go looking for stuff on there that I know i'll disagree with.

 

If I want to get some insight into politics then I know where to go.

 

Also, to some, politics is entertainment.

Absolutely. It definitely is to some. Just not to me. For me it has been my area of academic study and then formed the basis of my career. Not that I rely on reading Rachel Swindon’s tweets to put bread on the table, admittedly. But the wider scope of discourse, and even on a personal interest scale as a lefty - or former lefty maybe - I like to know. 
 

Anyway, I feel like we’ve driven that one into the dirt so I’ll move on. 

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Stop acting like a fucking tart will you. I'll agree to completely disagree with you and move on.

Stop chatting shite then, We are allowed to disagree. Although that post above is bang on the money.  

[Bruce Spanner]

8 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

NOOOOO Moo it's now fashionable to stick up for them! Get with the times 

 

As Brownie says, it's more nuanced than that due to all manner of factors, but personal responsibility has to be factored in quite highly as well.

 

Stupid people I'm fine with, the wilfully ignorant I would castigate until the sun burns out.

[Brownie]

Just now, Bjornebye said:

Stop chatting shite then, We are allowed to disagree. Although that post above is bang on the money.  

I didn't say you couldn't agree, so please stop suggesting that I did. Everyone is free to their opinion. 

 

I shook my head at your attitude towards the people rather than thinking about how it's come to that. They were clearly wrong, we know that. We need to understand why.

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Brownie said:

I didn't say you couldn't agree, so please stop suggesting that I did. Everyone is free to their opinion. 

 

I shook my head at your attitude towards the people rather than thinking about how it's come to that. They were clearly wrong, we know that. We need to understand why.

How would you approach it? Do you think they offered the same level of rationality when Diane Abbot wore odd shoes? The pair of them should have been launched head first into Hartlepool Bay because they are a danger to society, just like the BBC who allowed their lies to be broadcast nationwide. 

[Brownie]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

How would you approach it? Do you think they offered the same level of rationality when Diane Abbot wore odd shoes? The pair of them should have been launched head first into Hartlepool Bay because they are a danger to society, just like the BBC who allowed their lies to be broadcast nationwide. 

We need to move on mate. Your approach to it, although understandable, solves nothing.

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

How would you approach it? Do you think they offered the same level of rationality when Diane Abbot wore odd shoes? The pair of them should have been launched head first into Hartlepool Bay because they are a danger to society, just like the BBC who allowed their lies to be broadcast nationwide. 

The real issue with that, as I see it, is the BBC. Then not picking them up on it, and then broadcasting it without any balance, was irresponsible. You’re always going to have criminally uninformed or insular people who only listen to drip fed bullshit, but the organisations that allow it to happen need fully revolutionising. Us taking aim at those pair of dickheads is cathartic, but ultimately what does it achieve? The BBC are the twats - the ones we pay for by the way - we should be looking to peg back. I want to see a Labour Party that focuses on these new (to current policy) issues, the ones that aren’t even really part of the everyday chatter, and make them front and centre. The political landscape is drawn up by those winning the game. Fuck that in the ass, start talking about other shit. Then win on those grounds. Find out what really resonates with voters in key areas and go for broke.