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Keir Starmer


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2 hours ago, Gnasher said:

 

Wrong. Gordon Brown was infact very "arsed" with Tony Blair it's common knowledge.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/blair-brown-war-two-fronts-1897146.html

 

 

Tony Blair did indeed win an election after the Iraq war although Labours majority was slashed to approx 67 seats from 167 against a conservative party that was in disarray. The only main party to oppose the Iraq war was the liberals who had their best result for decades and won approx 62 seats. Your last comment about the British public not being that arsed seems to be born out of the need to take another bizarre swipe at Jeremy Corbyn but as the old saying goes 'blind fury often leads to irrational thought. 

 

 

 

https://www.counterfire.org/articles/history/19460-15-years-on-from-the-biggest-protest-in-british-history

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Looking back on the 2005 election its interesting that as Labour lurched more to the right they haemorrhaged votes, they lost a hundred seats in Blairs last election as leader. The liberal party meanwhile under Charlie Kennedy positioned themselves to the left and had their best result in a generation. Although the fallout from the Iraq war may have skewed voting behaviour.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/02/charles-kennedy-left-labour-true-liberal

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I can understand people with strong ideals refusing to drift with the circumstances and drawing their line in the sand but these are dangerous times with a dangerous tory government, god help us if Johnson and Gove get a free eight year run. Hopefully they'll fuck it up so much in the next few years that their demise becomes inevitable. As Harold Wilson used to say, the public dont vote governments in they vote them out. I always remember as a kid mucking about outside a polling booth and a tv crew asked an old lady who dressed in red with the bunting and labour rosettes was she was obviously voting Labour 'oh definitely 100% " she said, what is it you like about labour, the reporter then asked "oh nothing' said the old woman  "I just can't stand the other cunts" 

 

I think at the next election I'll hold my nose and do the same.

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I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

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3 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

The left are more likely to moan on Twitter, whereas the right end up on the news or in the papers complaining.

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57 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I think most Labour members / recently cancelled members will vote Labour in upcoming elections unless there are specific circumstances in the constituency , I certainly intend to at this point despite being underwhelmed with Starmer. The weird thing is that despite the more leftish Labour supporters always being blamed for fomenting disunity it is the centrist / right of the party who are more likely to pull a titty lip and look at alternatives if not in control of the party.

I think the issue is that unless Momentum and those types split and create their own party, there is no vehicle to rally behind for a left wing socialist cause. 

 

The whole thing just depresses me to be honest for a couple of reasons

 

1. Doesn't matter what happens the government is getting elected again

2. Jeremy Corbyn and his politics (for whatever reason) was rejected and to bang that particular drum again will not advance matters

3. The last Labour leader to be elected was Tony Blair so what does that tell you about this country?

 

I believe Starmer is playing the right cards, doing the right thing. I say this slightly through gritted teeth because I want him to be more aggressive, but if he does that, see point number one. 

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7 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

I think the issue is that unless Momentum and those types split and create their own party, there is no vehicle to rally behind for a left wing socialist cause. 

 

The whole thing just depresses me to be honest for a couple of reasons

 

1. Doesn't matter what happens the government is getting elected again

2. Jeremy Corbyn and his politics (for whatever reason) was rejected and to bang that particular drum again will not advance matters

3. The last Labour leader to be elected was Tony Blair so what does that tell you about this country?

 

I believe Starmer is playing the right cards, doing the right thing. I say this slightly through gritted teeth because I want him to be more aggressive, but if he does that, see point number one. 

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

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16 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

Fundamentally we live in a Conservative country, its in the blood of the country. It holds mostly centre-right views on immigration, taxes, patriotism and such likes. 

 

Your stance on Starmer, is very much the stance I think Momentum took with the rest of the working class, but it took support for Corbyn for granted. Everyone said Corbyn did very badly on the door step for a variety of different reasons. Corbyn's message resonated with a demographic of society which was not representative of the challenges, issues and concerns of the traditional working class voter, so much so that we ended up in the situation we did the other year with a massive Tory majority. 

 

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Trouble is, any new party that espouses even moderately left wing social and fiscal policies would be hounded to the point of extinction by this country's overwhelmingly right wing media. In a blind test, the public found Labour's policies at the last election favourable - it was just Corbyn they didn't like. Why? Because apparently he was a terrorist sympathiser, Trot etc. And who told them that?

 

I don't think that will change anytime soon.

 

However, I'll vote for Starmer's Labour as it still represents a realistic, credible alternative to this shit show of a government.

Obviously, the media in this country is mainly shit and right wing and that's always going to be an issue with any progressive politician, especially a leader of the Labour Party.

In many ways how the politician comes to terms with this fact and how him/her deals with it will define their success.

I voted for Jeremy twice and he had many good points. Being  a leader wasn't one of them nor was coming to terms with the media.

Dealing with the Media successfully is a key part of the job... if you can't do it well you're in the wrong job.

Keir, for me, isn't being as pro active as I would like and is saying idiotic things re Brexit and Europe.

It's still early days and I'm hoping he will grow into the role... think he's dealing with Press alright and hope he will become less timid

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56 minutes ago, Antynwa said:

Fundamentally we live in a Conservative country, its in the blood of the country. It holds mostly centre-right views on immigration, taxes, patriotism and such likes. 

 

Your stance on Starmer, is very much the stance I think Momentum took with the rest of the working class, but it took support for Corbyn for granted. Everyone said Corbyn did very badly on the door step for a variety of different reasons. Corbyn's message resonated with a demographic of society which was not representative of the challenges, issues and concerns of the traditional working class voter, so much so that we ended up in the situation we did the other year with a massive Tory majority. 

 

 

 

 

 

Labour's message was not allowed to resonate with anyone thanks to a deluge of personal attacks on the leader of the party. In fact, anyone on the left of the party was set upon (Diane Abbott for example). Labour's free broadband policy for instance, derided at the time as "communism" isn't looking so stupid now, but thats what people were led to believe.

 

Brexit was a big factor in Labour's poor results in the working class areas of the North too. The deliberate muddying of Labour's position on Brexit (which was to respect the result) by the media and certain members of the party was certainly unhelpful. Whilst I disagree with them, people who voted Brexit having done a little research other than what they've been told by the red tops or the Mail (I don't imagine that's many) have a lot more of my respect than some fucking morons mumbling on about immigrants, taking back control or getting brexit done.

 

Again, what I'm trying to say is that, while we have the media ownership we have in this country, the left are pissing into the wind.

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Good post Rushing tash. Regarding your last point, it's something that annoyed me about Corbyn and his team. They took a half way measure and it was never going to work. They should have either sucked off the media, or eviscerated them at every opportunity. In the end they did neither and predictably got no where as the media neither liked them (or more accurately, found them useful) nor feared them. They just allowed themselves to be smeared, lied about, exaggerated, ridiculed, etc. It was pathetic. 

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1 hour ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

People need to remember we are in the midst of a national crisis, so there is a limit to how much partisan stuff anyone can get away with before it's seen as indecent. Obviously when this is all over, I'd expect the gloves to come off.

That could be read as a criticism of "partisan stuff" coming from either wing of the party.

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27 minutes ago, Rushies tash said:

Labour's message was not allowed to resonate with anyone thanks to a deluge of personal attacks on the leader of the party. In fact, anyone on the left of the party was set upon (Diane Abbott for example). Labour's free broadband policy for instance, derided at the time as "communism" isn't looking so stupid now, but thats what people were led to believe.

 

Brexit was a big factor in Labour's poor results in the working class areas of the North too. The deliberate muddying of Labour's position on Brexit (which was to respect the result) by the media and certain members of the party was certainly unhelpful. Whilst I disagree with them, people who voted Brexit having done a little research other than what they've been told by the red tops or the Mail (I don't imagine that's many) have a lot more of my respect than some fucking morons mumbling on about immigrants, taking back control or getting brexit done.

 

Again, what I'm trying to say is that, while we have the media ownership we have in this country, the left are pissing into the wind.

Spot on, I agree with this. Its difficult to be anywhere near to the left with the media as they are in this country.

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10 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Good post Rushing tash. Regarding your last point, it's something that annoyed me about Corbyn and his team. They took a half way measure and it was never going to work. They should have either sucked off the media, or eviscerated them at every opportunity. In the end they did neither and predictably got no where as the media neither liked them (or more accurately, found them useful) nor feared them. They just allowed themselves to be smeared, lied about, exaggerated, ridiculed, etc. It was pathetic. 

Agreed. I'm not 'cult of Corbyn' by any means, and one of my criticisms would be his and the leadership at the time not engaging the media enough (or in the right ways). Whether that was by design or whether the media weren't interested in conveying the message, I'm not sure.

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1 minute ago, Rushies tash said:

Agreed. I'm not 'cult of Corbyn' by any means, and one of my criticisms would be his and the leadership at the time not engaging the media enough (or in the right ways). Whether that was by design or whether the media weren't interested in conveying the message, I'm not sure.

I honestly just think they didn't know what to do. They had to fight a battle against the opposition, 95% of the media, and lots of their own MPs, and they predictably weren't sure how to deal with it. 

 

In 2017 it nearly worked. Brexit and, frankly, a worse campaign, ensured it couldn't in 2019. 

 

It's been said on here that Corbyn's supporters often see Corbyn as socialism. Like it hasn't existed before, doesn't now, or indeed didn't exist during his time as leader away from him. It's true obviously, but it's also true that he represented the first chance for a generation for it to be a reality. It is the reason that much bitterness still exists. It's the reason people don't have much time for politicians or media figures now saying "get behind the manager" etc. Because the people saying it are the people that did their utmost to prevent that once in a generation chance. 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I honestly just think they didn't know what to do. They had to fight a battle against the opposition, 95% of the media, and lots of their own MPs, and they predictably weren't sure how to deal with it. 

 

In 2017 it nearly worked. Brexit and, frankly, a worse campaign, ensured it couldn't in 2019. 

 

It's been said on here that Corbyn's supporters often see Corbyn as socialism. Like it hasn't existed before, doesn't now, or indeed didn't exist during his time as leader away from him. It's true obviously, but it's also true that he represented the first chance for a generation for it to be a reality. It is the reason that much bitterness still exists. It's the reason people don't have much time for politicians or media figures now saying "get behind the manager" etc. Because the people saying it are the people that did their utmost to prevent that once in a generation chance. 

 

 

Spot on.

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It was also a case of "they go low, we go high" being a completely incorrect strategy. Ironically whilst we left wing nut cases like to be morally pure, once he realised the press were always going to attack him he should have gone at them with everything he had. Corbyn just never had it in him to attack the press and the "enemy within" his own party and once you back down to bullies they keep pushing. 

 

In relation to Starmer, I think he should be opposing more but I do also understand about the national crisis (see I can be fair and balanced), so needs to be careful. 

I look forward to policies being announced once we are past the worse of Covid on how to reignite the economy and the media's reaction to them if they don't involve screwing the poorest, then Starmers reaction to the media. 

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17 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

It was also a case of "they go low, we go high" being a completely incorrect strategy. Ironically whilst we left wing nut cases like to be morally pure, once he realised the press were always going to attack him he should have gone at them with everything he had. Corbyn just never had it in him to attack the press and the "enemy within" his own party and once you back down to bullies they keep pushing. 

 

 

 Fool me once etc.

 

With hindsight , once Corbyn failed to discipline Hodge or the leaders of the chicken coup and take any legal action against various people specifically saying he was anti-semitic , the cause was lost as it became open house. In some ways I am actually more angry with Corbyn for being so wishy washy with his enemies as a leader than I am with the enemies themselves.

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11 minutes ago, sir roger said:

 Fool me once etc.

 

With hindsight , once Corbyn failed to discipline Hodge or the leaders of the chicken coup and take any legal action against various people specifically saying he was anti-semitic , the cause was lost as it became open house. In some ways I am actually more angry with Corbyn for being so wishy washy with his enemies as a leader than I am with the enemies themselves

 

 

 

. I expect the Tories to be cunts, so it is not surprising when they are. Corbyn tried to be nice to everyone inside the party, never attack your own, gave them a licence to attack him without reply.

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