Keir Starmer

[Megadrive Man]

1 hour ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

I feel like Labour would fight for and protect corporate rights more than they would human and working rights. Im not giving them my vote anymore just because they're not tories because for me they pretty much are...  not as bad but a slightly diluted version. No change no rocking the boat we will just keep walking this path of atrophy because political greed and cowardice. Complete systemic change is needed, even if Labour got power they would only do more to cement and increase their own chances of holding power not make a more democratic involved system. For me as a working class, working man they don't seem to represent anything, im done with them.

 

I'd rather my vote wasted politically but mean something personally than take part in the Tory Labour sham.

 

I feel exactly the same way.

 

I want to support them, but Starmer doesn't inspire anything. I see today he's dropped the pledge to fight for return to free EU movement. Why pledge this if he has no intention of doing it? I get the feeling that by the time we get to the 2024 election he won't be standing on anything like the platform he suggested and it will be a Tory vs Not quite as bad as the Tories election. What a choice.

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

Feeling represented. A political party pushing for systemic change. Im more aligned to the green party, I've constantly voted Labour because I dont want Tory, truth is I dont want Labour any more either. Unfortunately most people I know dont want Labour anymore either but will vote against their own self interest by going Tory because somehow they feel the Tories represent ordinary working people more than Labour. 

I’m more aligned to the Green Party too. Doesn’t matter though. They’re not going to win a fucking thing so for most people and their actual lives, which is more important than the political nonsense, it doesn’t help at all. It’s a two horse race, and we don’t yet know what the policies are except for the pledged ones from Corbyn. 
 

Never understood why some people’s way of sticking it to the Tories to help them win more power. Still, that’s the beauty of democracy I guess. 

[Jairzinho]

People just have a different line in the sand, that's all. 

[Brownie]

44 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

People just have a different line in the sand, that's all. 

Exactly.

[torahboy]

4 hours ago, Bobby Hundreds said:

I feel like Labour would fight for and protect corporate rights more than they would human and working rights. Im not giving them my vote anymore just because they're not tories because for me they pretty much are...  not as bad but a slightly diluted version. No change no rocking the boat we will just keep walking this path of atrophy because political greed and cowardice. Complete systemic change is needed, even if Labour got power they would only do more to cement and increase their own chances of holding power not make a more democratic involved system. For me as a working class, working man they don't seem to represent anything, im done with them.

 

I'd rather my vote wasted politically but mean something personally than take part in the Tory Labour sham.

 

 

I think this speaks for a lot of Labour voters right now. I know that I felt this way about the Blair years; struggling with the need to be rid of the Tories but totally unconvinced that New Labour was such a different proposition. Managing capital for the benefit of those who gain most from it has been the constant preoccupation of British politics and, as you state, a systemic change is long overdue. What we have now and what their policies project for the ordinary working class people is quite a frightening future. And fuck knows what is being prepared for our public sector behind the cover of this Covid pandemic.   

[Numero Veinticinco]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

People just have a different line in the sand, that's all. 

There’s the Tories side of the line and there’s Labour side of the line. If somebody is so against being on the Tory side of the line that they move from the Labour side of the line to the Tory side of the line, maybe they’ve misunderstood how the line works. 
 

The issue I have is that there’s the reality of the situation and then there’s people’s preferences. Obviously people can vote however they want, that’s our individual right. I just think it’s a shame to see so many people making it easier for Tories to win because the reality of the opposition isn’t exactly what they want. Ah well. Nothing I can do about it. 

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, Numero said:

There’s the Tories side of the line and there’s Labour side of the line. If somebody is so against being on the Tory side of the line that they move from the Labour side of the line to the Tory side of the line, maybe they’ve misunderstood how the line works. 
 

The issue I have is that there’s the reality of the situation and then there’s people’s preferences. Obviously people can vote however they want, that’s our individual right. I just think it’s a shame to see so many people making it easier for Tories to win because the reality of the opposition isn’t exactly what they want. Ah well. Nothing I can do about it. 

Yeah, I disagree.

[Numero Veinticinco]

Just now, Jairzinho said:

Yeah, I disagree.

Ok. 

[Gnasher]

This unifying the party pledge is going well.

[sir roger]

Playing devil's advocate , he is unifying the bits of the Labour party he is interested in so he probably feels it is going well.

[Jairzinho]

21 minutes ago, Numero said:

Ok. 

 

Sorry, it's just been done to death here.

 

If the Tories say "We're going to execute 10000 toddlers in the street" and Labour say "We'll only execute 9000" then I'm going to vote Green. 

 

For some people The Iraq war was crossing the line, for others PFI, for others abstaining on the welfare bill, for others not backing the teacher's union. Etc, etc. 

 

I just don't accept that everyone that refuses to vote for them should feel guilty. No, the responsibility is on the Labour Party. If they want to drift off to the right then they shouldn't be surprised when people on the left don't vote for them.

 

There are certain times where biting your tongue is more important than usual, and I certainly accept that you could argue that right now. I will be voting Labour. I don't like Starmer, I don't trust Starmer, but I will be voting Labour. The alternative is simply too fucking horrendous. However, I'm not going to be calling someone a Tory enabler if they vote Green. Or don't vote at all. Maybe a policy of Labour's, or one they've shit out of opposing, affects them personally. 

 

As I said, I obviously understand the reality and the practicalities but the idea that you simply must vote Labour, especially after the right of the party has spent the last five years acting like absolute fucking scum, isn't one I really accept. Others will think "fuck em", and while my vote will be different to theirs, I don't blame them.

[skend04]

What are the right wing policies that Labour, under Starmer, are pitching to the electorate?

[Numero Veinticinco]

12 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Sorry, it's just been done to death here.

 

If the Tories say "We're going to execute 10000 toddlers in the street" and Labour say "We'll only execute 9000" then I'm going to vote Green. 

 

For some people The Iraq war was crossing the line, for others PFI, for others abstaining on the welfare bill, for others not backing the teacher's union. Etc, etc. 

 

I just don't accept that everyone that refuses to vote for them should feel guilty. No, the responsibility is on the Labour Party. If they want to drift off to the right then they shouldn't be surprised when people on the left don't vote for them.

 

There are certain times where biting your tongue is more important than usual, and I certainly accept that you could argue that right now. I will be voting Labour. I don't like Starmer, I don't trust Starmer, but I will be voting Labour. The alternative is simply too fucking horrendous. However, I'm not going to be calling someone a Tory enabler if they vote Green. Or don't vote at all. Maybe a policy of Labour's, or one they've shit out of opposing, affects them personally. 

 

As I said, I obviously understand the reality and the practicalities but the idea that you simply must vote Labour, especially after the right of the party has spent the last five years acting like absolute fucking scum, isn't one I really accept. Others will think "fuck em", and while my vote will be different to theirs, I don't blame them.

That’s why I said about preference vs reality. I want to save those thousand babies. You big ol’ baby killer. 
 

I do think we need to wait and see about Labour. I don’t really accept this ‘mini Tories’ stuff. There’s very little to suggest there’s not significant differences. Of course I don’t align with them - it’s why I’m not a member. My obvious point here is, save the babies. Everything else is just not the reality of our situation. 

[Bruce Spanner]

43 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Sorry, it's just been done to death here.

 

If the Tories say "We're going to execute 10000 toddlers in the street" and Labour say "We'll only execute 9000" then I'm going to vote Green. 

 

For some people The Iraq war was crossing the line, for others PFI, for others abstaining on the welfare bill, for others not backing the teacher's union. Etc, etc. 

 

I just don't accept that everyone that refuses to vote for them should feel guilty. No, the responsibility is on the Labour Party. If they want to drift off to the right then they shouldn't be surprised when people on the left don't vote for them.

 

There are certain times where biting your tongue is more important than usual, and I certainly accept that you could argue that right now. I will be voting Labour. I don't like Starmer, I don't trust Starmer, but I will be voting Labour. The alternative is simply too fucking horrendous. However, I'm not going to be calling someone a Tory enabler if they vote Green. Or don't vote at all. Maybe a policy of Labour's, or one they've shit out of opposing, affects them personally. 

 

As I said, I obviously understand the reality and the practicalities but the idea that you simply must vote Labour, especially after the right of the party has spent the last five years acting like absolute fucking scum, isn't one I really accept. Others will think "fuck em", and while my vote will be different to theirs, I don't blame them.

Some of, yes and they can genuinely go fuck themselves, not all, but the rest I get completely.

 

Starmer I trust his hearts in the right place, if that transpires in to policies that stick and ideas that benefit many great, if not then we’re back at square one. Do I trust him to win an election, I’m not sure yet as he seems naive and green, but he’s the man we chose, so he’s the man we back. You don’t get to have the career he’s had without being competent and able to deal with politics, hopefully it’s transferable, time will tell.

 

Its going to be a long and frustrating four years. 

[Brownie]

Agree with Jairz.

[Numero Veinticinco]

14 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Agree with Jairz.

What, that’s it’s worth killing a thousand babies in order to throw your vote away? Fair enough, you mad men. 

[Bruce Spanner]

7 minutes ago, Numero said:

What, that’s it’s worth killing a thousand babies in order to throw your vote away? Fair enough, you mad men. 

[Brownie]

17 minutes ago, Numero said:

What, that’s it’s worth killing a thousand babies in order to throw your vote away? Fair enough, you mad men. 

They’re gone, get over it.

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, Numero said:

That’s why I said about preference vs reality. I want to save those thousand babies. You big ol’ baby killer. 
 

I do think we need to wait and see about Labour. I don’t really accept this ‘mini Tories’ stuff. There’s very little to suggest there’s not significant differences. Of course I don’t align with them - it’s why I’m not a member. My obvious point here is, save the babies. Everything else is just not the reality of our situation. 

I should also stress I'm talking generally really. Starmer hasn't had a great deal of time to prove what the Labour Party is or will be under him. 

 

However I don't really like the black and white nature of determining what is the reality of the situation because it ignores the future. Saving those babies now might lead to more dying in the future. Can the dynamic exist indefinitely? If Labour remain slightly less shit than the Tories do we vote for them for the next decade? 20 years? 40? This is something every individual has to decide. Balancing this with the damage of what a handful more years of Tory cuntery will do. 

 

I just don't think it's as clear cut as you make out. 

 

[Jairzinho]

1 hour ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Some of, yes and they can genuinely go fuck themselves, not all, but the rest I get completely.

 

Starmer I trust his hearts in the right place, if that transpires in to policies that stick and ideas that benefit many great, if not then we’re back at square one. Do I trust him to win an election, I’m not sure yet as he seems naive and green, but he’s the man we chose, so he’s the man we back. You don’t get to have the career he’s had without being competent and able to deal with politics, hopefully it’s transferable, time will tell.

 

Its going to be a long and frustrating four years. 

I agree with most of that and to be honest my overriding thought, more so than anything regarding Starmer as a man or politician, is one of utter fear regarding the unrelenting stupidity of the population. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

11 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I should also stress I'm talking generally really. Starmer hasn't had a great deal of time to prove what the Labour Party is or will be under him. 

 

However I don't really like the black and white nature of determining what is the reality of the situation because it ignores the future. Saving those babies now might lead to more dying in the future. Can the dynamic exist indefinitely? If Labour remain slightly less a shit than the Tories do we vote for them for the next decade? 20 years? 40? This is something every individual has to decide. Balancing this with the damage of what a handful more years of Tory cuntery will do. 

 

I just don't think it's as clear cut as you make out. 

 

I guess if you were to think the Tories winning power is less likely to maintain the baby killing paradigm than if Labour won, that argument could be a flaw in the ‘it’s between those two’ view in the long run. I just don’t see how that could possibly be true. 

 

Skaro asked a valid question earlier. Also, the ‘Tory lite’ angle that seems to be accepted in the last few pages for the basis of this discussion actually requires something to back it up. There are substantive differences between any Labour government and these Tories, just because of the collective ideological differences. We just have to look at the Blair/Brown ‘red Tories’ years to see how much better that was in terms of socialist programs than the Tories. 
 

Is there a better way? Yes! Will it become reality by letting the Tories gain more power and by increasing the number of Green votes from 327 to 328? I’m thinking it’s unlikely. If it’s not black and white, it’s a grey that’s so dark you need a colour calibration tool to tell the difference. 
 

I’d have the Greens in a second. Hell, I’d have a new party that represented my views even better than the Greens. Half of my views are borderline communist; there’s a reason I’m not a Labour member. But I’ll be damned if anyone actually gives a fuck what I think because it’ll be the Labour leader or the Tory leader in power next. That’s just how it is. Tories staying in power will - burying their talons deeper in into the flesh of the lifeless cadaver that is the UK -  make any substantive change leas likely not more. 
 

Considering the difference a Labour government could have made had they been in power since 2010, it’s no small difference to real lives. Let’s imagine that world. Years and years of erosion of social projects under austerity don’t happen (Sure Starts, libraries, police cuts, etc). No Universal Credit. No Brexit. Lives saved by ver Covid response. They might not be paradise, but it’s also not a choice between slightly worse baby killers and slightly better ones. Sure, we can moan about lots of stuff with Labour, I’m just asking for us to moan about it whilst they’re in power and not Boris FUCKING Johnson. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Failing that, I’m well up for a violent revolution. 

[Section_31]

Great post from Jairz. 

 

I don't know what to pigeon myself as but my ideal society would be the Nordic ones, high taxes but quality public services, free (or subsidised) education and healthcare. They have a healthy brand of positive patriotism too (don't the Danes make you do time in the military?)

 

What they're missing, and what Canada and New Zealand are missing, are a Murdoch press. The countries which do have one, the States, us and Australia all have a working class that are rife with right wing views. 

 

The damage has been done over a course of decades and it needs somehow to be unpicked. I think it's important to have the likes of 'a' Corbyn and Momentum challenging that at grassroots level, with social media, whatever means needed. 

 

What I don't understand, and will never understand, is the fact they turned those guns on Starmer before he'd even brylcreamed his hair.  

 

We need a two pronged attack. Grassroots movements trying to shape the narrative,  but also a capable and professional party that can actually win elections. They should be allies, not foes. 

 

 

[A Red]

Being a lifelong Labour supporter and saying you wont vote for them, before you see the next manifesto, seems a bit daft to me.

[Jairzinho]

8 minutes ago, Numero said:

I guess if you were to think the Tories winning power is less likely to maintain the baby killing paradigm than if Labour won, that argument could be a flaw in the ‘it’s between those two’ view in the long run. I just don’t see how that could possibly be true. 

 

Skaro asked a valid question earlier. Also, the ‘Tory lite’ angle that seems to be accepted in the last few pages for the basis of this discussion actually requires something to back it up. There are substantive differences between any Labour government and these Tories, just because of the collective ideological differences. We just have to look at the Blair/Brown ‘red Tories’ years to see how much better that was in terms of socialist programs than the Tories. 
 

Is there a better way? Yes! Will it become reality by letting the Tories gain more power and by increasing the number of Green votes from 327 to 328? I’m thinking it’s unlikely. If it’s not black and white, it’s a grey that’s so dark you need a colour calibration tool to tell the difference. 
 

I’d have the Greens in a second. Hell, I’d have a new party that represented my views even better than the Greens. Half of my views are borderline communist; there’s a reason I’m not a Labour member. But I’ll be damned if anyone actually gives a fuck what I think because it’ll be the Labour leader or the Tory leader in power next. That’s just how it is. Tories staying in power will - burying their talons deeper in into the flesh of the lifeless cadaver that is the UK -  make any substantive change leas likely not more. 
 

Considering the difference a Labour government could have made had they been in power since 2010, it’s no small difference to real lives. Let’s imagine that world. Years and years of erosion of social projects under austerity don’t happen (Sure Starts, libraries, police cuts, etc). No Universal Credit. No Brexit. Lives saved by ver Covid response. They might not be paradise, but it’s also not a choice between slightly worse baby killers and slightly better ones. Sure, we can moan about lots of stuff with Labour, I’m just asking for us to moan about it whilst they’re in power and not Boris FUCKING Johnson. 

It isn't about the Tories winning in isolation, it's what happens to the Labour Party. Or any other party that isn't the Tories. Or stuff out side of parliamentary politics. Does legitimising a party that you fundamentally disagree with help long term? Maybe, maybe not. It isn't clear cut. What is more likely to lead to substantive, systemic change? 

 

I don't know the answer, but I don't think anyone else does either.