Keir Starmer

[Jairzinho]

Some polls from northern brexit towns and marginals from the midlands and south would be more interesting, and relevant, than the overall percentage for the country.

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Some polls from northern brexit towns and marginals from the midlands and south would be more interesting, and relevant, than the overall percentage for the country.

Ok I'll take a wild guess that those potential labour voters in the areas you mention are at this moment in time concerned more about their jobs, business, furloughs payments, health service, care facilities and children's education than Keir Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn fighting over antisemitism on the main stream news.

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

Ok I'll take a wild guess that those potential labour voters in the areas you mention are at this moment in time concerned more about their jobs, business, furloughs payments, health service, care facilities and children's education than Keir Starmer and Jeremy Corbyn fighting over antisemitism on the main stream news.

I agree, certainly re the northern brexit towns.

 

But the marginals in Stoke and Cheltenham could be different. These are decided by a couple of thousand people that watch the BBC news religiously.

[sir roger]

They are probably still wanking over pictures of Johnson , fuck them, the cunts

[Gnasher]

6 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I agree, certainly re the northern brexit towns.

 

But the marginals in Stoke and Cheltenham could be different. These are decided by a couple of thousand people that watch the BBC news religiously.

Yeah of course you are probably right, as is I hate to say it is Numero, those voters must be won over. I just think it could've been done without alienating the core Labour vote built up by Corbyn and avoided a civil war to appease a few fruitcakes in the mainstream media.

[Jairzinho]

I don't disagree. 

 

My hope is that there is some strategic plan to all of this. They've got four fucking years after all.

[Bruce Spanner]

31 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

Yeah of course you are right, as is I hate to say it Numero those voters must be won over. I think it could've been done without alienating the core Labour vote built up by Corbyn and avoided a civil war to appease a few fruitcakes in the mainstream media.

This isn’t quite right, though some of it is.

 

‘We’ gained a lot of voters who normally wouldn’t have engaged and in 2017 we had both - these and ‘traditional’ voters - people were engaged and hopeful, but sadly it wasn’t quite enough.
 

In 2019 ‘we’ lost a part of the traditional voters, for whatever reason, and kept the habitual and new. It’s all distorted as the GE wasn’t a policy GE it was a single issue GE, unprecedented and something I hope we never see again.

 

I don’t believe Corbyn built a core Labour vote, I believe he energised a lot of new, as well as old, in to a version of Labour we’d not known in our lifetime, if it every really existed in our sepia tinged historical memories.

 

But, that was part of the problem, it was led by personal versions of what Blighty could be, not what it was or is. ‘We’ ride the wave of optimism without really considering what the options were.
 

2019 was a disaster because arrogance and ignorance were allowed to run roughshod, from both sides and that’s a failing from all.
 

We all wanted our utopias and we end up with the worst iteration of the Tories, possibly, ever.

 

The Job is to now manage to get all three voter types, I know there are a manifold of differences in the shades of grey, as it’s the only hope of having a chance at affecting change, and that’s a really fucking tough ask with the country the way it is.

 

Edit: Full disclosure I worked on youth engagement in London with Labour, amongst other things, and the contrast between 2017 & 2019 was astonishing. In 2017 these people voted for the first time and lost, anecdotally it killed them straight off as they thought they’d win. Their first experience of democracy was crushing disappointment and that’s hard to shake.

[Gnasher]

17 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I agree, certainly re the northern brexit towns.

 

But the marginals in Stoke and Cheltenham could be different. These are decided by a couple of thousand people that watch the BBC news religiously.

Obviously true but another factor is the age demograph. Ie in all charts the youth vote in the past two elections favoured labour, its fact. The reasons are not cast in stone but the Corbyn mantra on tuition fees; broadband; rail regulation, rental policy, public ownership etc must surely have had an influence, 

 

Foolish imo to throw the votes of the future away.

 

 

[Gnasher]

10 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

This isn’t quite right, though some of it is.

 

‘We’ gained a lot of voters who normally wouldn’t have engaged and in 2017 we had both - these and ‘traditional’ voters - people were engaged and hopeful, but sadly it wasn’t quite enough.
 

In 2019 ‘we’ lost a part of the traditional voters, for whatever reason, and kept the habitual and new. It’s all distorted as the GE wasn’t a policy GE it was a single issue GE, unprecedented and something I hope we never see again.

 

I don’t believe Corbyn built a core Labour vote, I believe he energised a lot of new, as well as old, in to a version of Labour we’d not known in our lifetime, if it every really existed in our sepia tinged historical memories.

 

But, that was part of the problem, it was led by personal versions of what Blighty could be, not what it was or is. ‘We’ ride the wave of optimism without really considering what the options were.
 

2019 was a disaster because arrogance and ignorance were allowed to run roughshod, from both sides and that’s a failing from all.
 

We all wanted our utopias and we end up with the worst iteration of the Tories, possibly, ever.

 

The Job is to now manage to get all three voter types, I know there are a manifold of differences in the shades of grey, as it’s the only hope of having a chance at affecting change, and that’s a really fucking tough ask with the country the way it is.

I agree it's not a cut and thrust theory to play. The issues are more complex than easy slogans and simple blinkered rhetoric. Ie. Its not about pandering to the left or the right or remain or leave or cosmopolitan south or steadfast north.

 

The first thing labour needs is someone electable. No doubt in my mind Starmer fits the bill, ticks the boxes, got the attributes.

 

It's just the price he seems to be willing to pay to bow to the great and the good. He seems to want to hostage himself to a faction that have no interest in the common sense political vision of public ownership and wealth distribution. The youth are the key not the Corbyn crew or the friends of Israel. Or the old or the Media.

 

Seems the youngsters want cheap travel, eu membership ( I dont agree but there you go) good cheap education and fair rent and utilities.  If Starmer listens to them I think he and labour will be ok, if he listens to the nutty Twitter crew who want left wing members of the labour party thrown on a bonfire of false shame then I think hes going to get rebellion and itll lead to struggle.

 

Another card Starmer could play,  as the younger generation want eu membership is if the Tories fuck brexit up (and they will) is to offer the libs and greens proportional representation in parliament and form an alliance.

 

The end line is the tories have to go, no ifs no buts they need to be binned,  and all opposition factions should concentrate on that one objective for the next four years. Then we can fight about the direction we take.

[Bruce Spanner]

1 minute ago, Gnasher said:

I agree it's not a cut and thrust theory to play. The issues are more complex than easy slogans and simple blinkered rhetoric. Ie. Its not about pandering to the left or the right or remain or leave or cosmopolitan south or steadfast north.

 

The first thing labour needs is someone electable. No doubt in my mind Starmer fits the bill, ticks the boxes, got the attributes.

 

It's just the price he seems to be willing to pay to bow to the great and the good. He seems to want to hostage himself to a faction that have no interest in the common sense political vision of public ownership and wealth distribution. The youth are the key not the Corbyn crew or the friends of Israel. Or the old or the Media.

 

Seems the youngsters want cheap travel, eu membership ( I dont agree but there you go) good cheap education and fair rent and utilities.  If Starmer listens to them I think he and labour will be ok, if he listens to the nutty Twitter crew who want left wing members of the labour party thrown on a bonfire of false shame then I think hes going to get rebellion and itll lead to struggle.

 

Another card Starmer could play,  as the younger generation want eu membership is if the Tories fuck brexit up (and they will) is to offer the libs and greens proportional representation in parliament and form an alliance.

 

The end line is the tories have to go, no ifs no buts they need to be binned,  and all opposition factions should concentrate on that one objective for the next four years. Then we can fight about the direction we take.

I think most of that is really sensible, the main take away is that the world is in a massive state of flux, both personally and intellectually. 

 

The youth though are not just the internationally minded, they’re the sons and daughters of dickheads, stuck with nothing to look forward to apart from more of the same and that needs to change, though this needs education, hope and opportunity, things the Tories have starved the nation of for a decade more or less.

 

We’re stuck in a middle ground between hope and dissolution and defeat and there’s not that much in the air that points towards hope.

 

Narrative and message are key and I hope Starmer can bring that.

 

It can be done.

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

I think most of that is really sensible, the main take away is that the world is in a massive state of flux, both personally and intellectually. 

 

The youth though are not just the internationally minded, they’re the sons and daughters of dickheads, stuck with nothing to look forward to apart from more of the same and that needs to change, though this needs education, hope and opportunity, things the Tories have starved the nation of for a decade more or less.

 

We’re stuck in a middle ground between hope and dissolution and defeat and there’s not that much in the air that points towards hope.

 

Narrative and message are key and I hope Starmer can bring that.

 

It can be done.

Not sure where you get the youth not internationally minded. Unless I've read you wrong. Most of the ones I've met seem to want to fuck off around Europe on a jolly. I have tried to persuade them that Blackpool has a lot more going for if that Italy, Portugal and Spain but they gaze at me with a dumbfounded blank face. 

[cloggypop]

Ha ha! 

[A Red]

If Keir fucks Corbyn and his mates off and has a manifesto that doesnt look to fuck over working class people that have taken risks to better themselves, he'll get in.

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Not sure where you get the youth not internationally minded. Unless I've read you wrong. Most of the ones I've met seem to want to fuck off around Europe on a jolly. I have tried to persuade them that Blackpool has a lot more going for if that Italy, Portugal and Spain but they gaze at me with a dumbfounded blank face. 

Thats the problem, we only look to the ones who are speaking.

 

Theres’s thousands who are stuck in abject poverty, have failing schools, will go from failing schools to universal credit.

 

Look at those that fall through the gaps, there are thousands of them, I should know, I was one.

 

Hopeless, homeless and futuerless.

[Bruce Spanner]

4 minutes ago, cloggypop said:

Ha ha! 

Accidental Partridge? 

[cloggypop]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Accidental Partridge? 

Gnasher being first very sensible then very funny. Good stuff. 

[Gnasher]

2 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Thats the problem, we only look to the ones who are speaking.

 

Theres’s thousands who are stuck in abject poverty, have failing schools, will go from failing schools to universal credit.

 

Look at those that fall through the gaps, there are thousands of them, I should know, I was one.

 

Hopeless, homeless and futuerless.

Yeah your right. A lot havnt the opportunity. That is one major plus with the eu. I agree it does make it easier for those wanting to make the jump. I think the exploitation of unskilled youngsters makes me say no and have serious reservations but that's for the eu thread.

[Gnasher]

8 minutes ago, A Red said:

If Keir fucks Corbyn and his mates off and has a manifesto that doesnt look to fuck over working class people that have taken risks to better themselves, he'll get in.

Labour did get 10 million votes in the last election mind. Wasnt enough and and a lot were probably in spite of and not necessarily for Corbyn but it's still a lot of votes to diss.

[A Red]

Just now, Gnasher said:

Labour did get 10 million votes in the last election mind. Wasnt enough and and a lot were probably in spite of and not necessarily for Corbyn but it's still a lot of votes to diss.

Corbyn rarely if ever, spoke about bettering yourself, rewarding risk or working hard to gain rewards. He missed loads of votes.

[Gnasher]

22 minutes ago, A Red said:

Corbyn rarely if ever, spoke about bettering yourself, rewarding risk or working hard to gain rewards. He missed loads of votes.

You probably right in that it it sounded like that. He tried to defend those under threat from the threat of Tory poverty whilst his' optimistic' policies were more widespread and industrial like public ownership etc. I see what you mean though.

 

 

 

[Brownie]

 

[Gnasher]

34 minutes ago, Brownie said:

 

Plus 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/labour-exodus-in-protest-at-suspension-of-jeremy-corbyn-cnnkzqp97

 

 

Not good this. The same old story, Labour doing well then putting the ball in it's own net. 

[sir roger]

Doing well in what way ? 

[Gnasher]

Just now, sir roger said:

Doing well in what way ? 

Well in fairness to Starmer his strategy of focusing on tory incompetence seemed to be getting through and Labour were just starting to pull ahead in the polls. Starmer then decided to make a huge issue out of the anti semitism report (the second inquiry labour has authorized) and then pull the whip from the ex leader and we are where we are. 

[skend04]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/23/jeremy-corbyn-asked-to-apologise-over-his-antisemitism-claims

 

So this is the reason why Corbyn hasn't been readmitted to the party.