Keir Starmer

[Numero Veinticinco]

50 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

See I have an issue with the way some people have hijacked the word socialism or the phrase "left wing" and brand anyone they don't agree with as "centrist" and/or Blairite. All of which are meaningless terms in this context. (Where did Marx write about the Israeli police or Trident missiles?)

 

Corbyn’s labour seemed to me to be content with agitating rather than winning elections. This was illustrated when they did shit like divert campaign resources to doing stuff like making a noise in Iain Duncan Smith's constituency rather than deploy them to marginal or red wall seats. They didn't care. Even when they lost they said they'd "won the argument", chose an heiress apparent and have essentially waged war against the guy who beat her fair and square ever since, doing so with the landslide support of Labour members, who must now by definition be blairite Centrists.

 

It's dead easy isn't it to stand outside the tory conference with a banner, or the Israeli embassy with a placard, or retweet articles about footbanks. That gets you the moral authority to say yorue more left wing than your MP or his boss, but it's a lot harder to figure out a strategy for winning back a population who've only voted for one labour leader in my lifetime - the, erm, centrist bogeyman Tony Blair.

The left have, for as long as I can remember at least, be way more concerned with being right than with winning. For a long time I bought into the importance of being intellectually, factually, and morally correct on issues being the best starting place, but as I’ve got older the importance of facing the reality of elections has become more prominent. Elections are a popularity contest, and quite often an underhand one at that. That’s just a fact, you need to get more votes in key areas than the others. Being right isn’t enough. Being the nicest grandad at the allotments isn’t enough. Is it right or fair? No, of course not. It’s just the reality, so we can piss and moan or we can get on with it. I know, for a fact, that Labour won’t have the power to implement their policies unless they win power. I know, for a fact, that Corbyn lost an election badly and he is no longer the Labour leader. I think it’s time for him and his supporters to move on and support the new leader, not because they’re 100% in agreement but because the target must be winning. If that’s not the target, just completely withdraw and become a campaign group. 

[Bruce Spanner]

48 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Are you serious, Section ? 

it appears that the centre!/ right in HO illegally diverted funds to aid their mates and hamper any efforts in constituencies where a leftist candidate was standing and yet we are getting cobblers about a demo on IDS patch.

 

Corbyn, or his team, did exactly the same, see ED Balls and others.

 

We don’t half make it difficult for ourselves, do we? 

 

 

[Jairzinho]

2 minutes ago, Nummer Neunzehn said:

I think it’s time for him and his supporters to move on and support the new leader, not because they’re 100% in agreement but because the target must be winning. If that’s not the target, just completely withdraw and become a campaign group. 

I agree, although it's a difficult sell having had none of that whatsoever from the other side of the party while Corbyn was leader.

 

It's ultimately self-defeating for those on the left that refuse to support Starmer, but it's entirely understandable.

[Mudface]

4 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

Corbyn, or his team, did exactly the same, see ED Balls and others.

 

We don’t half make it difficult for ourselves, do we? 

 

 

Balls lost his seat in 2015 before Corbyn became leader.

[Bruce Spanner]

Just now, Mudface said:

Balls lost his seat in 2015 before Corbyn became leader.

What am I taking of then, I know he had funding removed though. Goddamn drugs

[Numero Veinticinco]

7 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

I agree, although it's a difficult sell having had none of that whatsoever from the other side of the party while Corbyn was leader.

 

It's ultimately self-defeating for those on the left that refuse to support Starmer, but it's entirely understandable.

I don’t understand it. Well, I understand why they’re doing it but it’s not reasonable to do. Of course the other side did it, and I called them out as cunts for it, but it didn’t start there. You could have said it was understandable for them to do it last time because Corbyn, Galloway, and friends had been doing it for years before. It’s all fuckin’ mince. Win, you twats, then argue about the best way to implement change. The fact we talk about sides, when they should all be on the same side, is an indication that a split might be needed. It won’t happen because those who split will get arse fucked. 

[Mudface]

16 minutes ago, Bruce Spanner said:

What am I taking of then, I know he had funding removed though. Goddamn drugs

Hopefully lost his membership after appearing on Strictly.

[Brownie]

Think i’ll vote for the Greens at the next election.

[Numero Veinticinco]

I’d vote Green if we had a PR. But as it stands, unless I was from Brighton, I could just say did. Same thing will happen. Nothing. 

[Bjornebye]

Identifying as an eye-test now NV? That’s a new one. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

Hahahah. The fuck has gone on there?

[cloggypop]

A lot worse than double spacing like. 

[Megadrive Man]

2 hours ago, Brownie said:

Think i’ll vote for the Greens at the next election.

Sadly this is how I feel now also.

 

The Labour party seems like its doomed with both sides of the party constantly at war with each other.  It shouldn't have to be a case of voting for the tories or not the tories. 

 

[Denny Crane]

7 hours ago, Brownie said:

Think i’ll vote for the Greens at the next election.

I think you will be the first of many who move from Labour to the Greens. They should probably have their own thread especially as they will be more relevant and will replace the Lib Dems as the 3rd party maybe not in seats but in vote share at the next election.

 

 

[Denny Crane]

5 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

Sadly this is how I feel now also.

 

The Labour party seems like its doomed with both sides of the party constantly at war with each other.  It shouldn't have to be a case of voting for the tories or not the tories. 

 

Maybe Labour voters moving to the Greens (if enough) go could have a similar impact to former Tory voters voting UKIP who moved the Tories right. The present Labour leadership think there is nobody to the left of them they could vote for. 

[Gnasher]

Slightly off topic but here is Andrew Neil admitting the power held by the media and their influence in the way the portray politicians. The BBC and main stream media outlets broke Corbyn.

 

 

 

[mattyq]

4 hours ago, Denny Crane said:

Maybe Labour voters moving to the Greens (if enough) go could have a similar impact to former Tory voters voting UKIP who moved the Tories right. The present Labour leadership think there is nobody to the left of them they could vote for. 

It's all part of the game... Starmer knows he's going to lose some of the voters on the left but calculates he will gain more in the centre and the floating voters.

If he's wrong the Tories get back in again and the Greens will still have one seat but their voters can bask in the glory of the moral high ground

Not sure how that helps a single mother of 2 on Universal Credit but there you go

[Bjornebye]

5 minutes ago, mattyq said:

It's all part of the game... Starmer knows he's going to lose some of the voters on the left but calculates he will gain more in the centre and the floating voters.

If he's wrong the Tories get back in again and the Greens will still have one seat but their voters can bask in the glory of the moral high ground

Not sure how that helps a single mother of 2 on Universal Credit but there you go

Spot on Matty. Like Starmer or not he is a billion light years better than anything the tories have got to offer and taking your vote away from labour is essential a vote for the tories IMO. Unfortunately voting green is about as worthwhile as voting for the lib-dems. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

9 minutes ago, mattyq said:

It's all part of the game... Starmer knows he's going to lose some of the voters on the left but calculates he will gain more in the centre and the floating voters.

If he's wrong the Tories get back in again and the Greens will still have one seat but their voters can bask in the glory of the moral high ground

Not sure how that helps a single mother of 2 on Universal Credit but there you go

As long as Adolf Starmer - the most right wing politician this land will have ever seen because he wouldn't put up with RLB being insubordinate - doesn't get in, then the job is done. Sure, the Tories will win again and the Greens will obviously be a wasted vote, but if we can convince enough people to waste their vote them maybe next time a true working class hero like Corbyn can run on an agenda I think sounds cool... but still lose. Something to build on though, isn't it. 

 

Yeah, as I did with Corbyn, I'll be voting for whichever party can stop the Tories getting the seat. 

[Section_31]

I understand why people get despondent when they're looking for a genuine socialist option, and why people take their votes elsewhere. I've voted for non Labour candidates in council elections on occasion because I felt the incumbent was shite. But nationally, it is and always has been a two party state, even  that is hanging by a thread. 

 

In terms of national politics, you're either helping the Tories or hindering them. By playing into the constant narrative online of 'Labour at war' you're helping the Tories IMO, it's as simple as that. Sadly I think a lot of people out there aren't doing it for genuine reasons either, merely that they found a niche online as Corbyn outriders and are fearful of losing their followers, so stick the boot in regardless now. 

 

Tony Blair and New Labour were never in a million years as bad as any of the Tory governments we had before or since, not even a faction, but you'd never think that judging by a lot of the stuff these people churn out. 

[Denny Crane]

23 minutes ago, mattyq said:

It's all part of the game... Starmer knows he's going to lose some of the voters on the left but calculates he will gain more in the centre and the floating voters.

If he's wrong the Tories get back in again and the Greens will still have one seat but their voters can bask in the glory of the moral high ground

Not sure how that helps a single mother of 2 on Universal Credit but there you go

There are many local elections before the General Elections. If the Greens could get a good showing who knows eh. 

[Numero Veinticinco]

8 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

I understand why people get despondent when they're looking for a genuine socialist option, and why people take their votes elsewhere. I've voted for non Labour candidates in council elections on occasion because I felt the incumbent was shite. But nationally, it is and always has been a two party state, even  that is hanging by a thread. 

 

In terms of national politics, you're either helping the Tories or hindering them. By playing into the constant narrative online of 'Labour at war' you're helping the Tories IMO, it's as simple as that. Sadly I think a lot of people out there aren't doing it for genuine reasons either, merely that they found a niche online as Corbyn outriders and are fearful of losing their followers, so stick the boot in regardless now. 

 

Tony Blair and New Labour were never in a million years as bad as any of the Tory governments we had before or since, not even a faction, but you'd never think that judging by a lot of the stuff these people churn out. 

Exactly. 

[mattyq]

4 minutes ago, Denny Crane said:

There are many local elections before the General Elections. If the Greens could get a good showing who knows eh. 

Mate, I'm not knocking the Greens. I agree with a lot of their policies and Caroline Lucas is outstanding

But in a GE, unless you live in Brighton, if you vote Green you might as well be wearing a blue rosette and wanking over a picture of Thatcher

You know this, you don't need me to tell you

Things have gone badly wrong in this country and it's getting worse. It'd be nice if we elected a Government that didn't hate most of its citizens

[sir roger]

I have voted Labour in every election for the 42 years I have been eligible and that won't change , and I suspect when push comes to shove most left leaning members will as well , but what you two seem to be disregarding is that there is bound to be ill-feeling when the supporters of Corbyns leadership are being patronised and held to different standards by people who constantly worked totally at odds with this advice that 'any Labour leader us better than a tory ' when it suited them.

[Vincent Vega]

Voting Green is a waste of time unless you live in Brighton Pavilion. If you live in a marginal and vote Green you will have no right to whinge about the Tories if they win the next election. The priority has to be to get these cunts out. I have no time for the Lib Dems, but if I lived in a seat where the Lib Dem candidate was the only one who had a chance of beating a Tory, I wouldn’t think twice about voting for them. The same goes for the SNP if them or a Tory.
 

I liked a lot of what Corbyn wanted to do, especially the nationalisation stuff, but I’m no so wedded to it that I won’t compromise. I live in a Labour/Tory marginal, so fortunately I can vote for the party who best represent my views, even under Starmer.