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Keir Starmer


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14 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Ha ha , I thought we were meant to be the cultists.

 

Feel sorry for Keir, must be uncomfortable with so many tongues up his arse.

But you don’t feel sorry for him, do you? You actively dislike him enough to quit the party over. Don’t get me wrong, that’s a totally valid opinion, but you don’t feel sorry for him. I’d say it probably rankles that he is getting a lot of praise, that he is doing well in PMQs, and that the numbers are saying he is popular with voters, and he is making Labour more electable. You’re a very nice fella, Sir Rog, but I think you should make sure you’re on the right side of this. 

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I dont feel sorry for him as it looks like he conned his way to my , and no doubt many others, vote.

 

I am more disappointed by him than angry with him , and feel that he has thrown away a fantastic opportunity to get a more or less United Labour party and this will hurt him long term. I would still 100% rather have him in no.10 than the present idiot , but I dont think he will , as he seems to have no real conviction about anything . 

 

As for his polling at present I am not getting too excited , as ' He shouldn't be fucking lauded for being level with the worst PM in history who has also managed to be complicit in the deaths of 60k of his people '

 

Isnt that how it works if you are not keen on the person involved ?

 

One thing different with us 'Corbynites' and you Centrists though is that a massive percentage of Left Leaners would always rather have a Centrist Labour pm , but from my experience most Centrists were pleased that Corbyn got beat so they could say they were right, even though it gave us 5 years of Johnson. But we are the ones who are splitting the party , go figure.

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5 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I dont feel sorry for him as it looks like he conned his way to my , and no doubt many others, vote.

 

I am more disappointed by him than angry with him , and feel that he has thrown away a fantastic opportunity to get a more or less United Labour party and this will hurt him long term. I would still 100% rather have him in no.10 than the present idiot , but I dont think he will , as he seems to have no real conviction about anything . 

 

As for his polling at present I am not getting too excited , as ' He shouldn't be fucking lauded for being level with the worst PM in history who has also managed to be complicit in the deaths of 60k of his people '

 

Isnt that how it works if you are not keen on the person involved ?

 

One thing different with us 'Corbynites' and you Centrists though is that a massive percentage of Left Leaners would always rather have a Centrist Labour pm , but from my experience most Centrists were pleased that Corbyn got beat so they could say they were right, even though it gave us 5 years of Johnson. But we are the ones who are splitting the party , go figure.

I stopped reading at centrists, I’m afraid. Which is saying something because I thought the rest was, putting it as politely as I can, wide of the mark. I’m not a centrist and I never have been. It’s a annoying habit Corbynites have picked up to label people who have an issue with the way they operate as a centrist, a Blairite, or right winger. It’s perfectly possible to be on the left and acknowledge the disaster of the last leadership. 

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8 minutes ago, sir roger said:

I dont feel sorry for him as it looks like he conned his way to my , and no doubt many others, vote.

 

I am more disappointed by him than angry with him , and feel that he has thrown away a fantastic opportunity to get a more or less United Labour party and this will hurt him long term. I would still 100% rather have him in no.10 than the present idiot , but I dont think he will , as he seems to have no real conviction about anything . 

 

As for his polling at present I am not getting too excited , as ' He shouldn't be fucking lauded for being level with the worst PM in history who has also managed to be complicit in the deaths of 60k of his people '

 

Isnt that how it works if you are not keen on the person involved ?

 

One thing different with us 'Corbynites' and you Centrists though is that a massive percentage of Left Leaners would always rather have a Centrist Labour pm , but from my experience most Centrists were pleased that Corbyn got beat so they could say they were right, even though it gave us 5 years of Johnson. But we are the ones who are splitting the party , go figure.

Well, we just need him to con those floating Tory voters for the next 4 and a half years and we might get a Labour government in 2024.

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56 minutes ago, sir roger said:

One thing different with us 'Corbynites' and you Centrists though is that a massive percentage of Left Leaners would always rather have a Centrist Labour pm , but from my experience most Centrists were pleased that Corbyn got beat so they could say they were right, even though it gave us 5 years of Johnson. But we are the ones who are splitting the party , go figure.

 

Jesus you're kidding aren't you mate? Starmer hadn't even taken the reins and it was hatchet jobs agogo on the likes of the canary, most of it bollocks too.

 

"He's a Blairite!" 

"Why?"

"I don't know."

 

"He's a knight!'

"So is Kenny Dalglish!" 

"Yeah but that's footy."

 

I see Kate Green has already been dismissed as a "neoliberal banker" now as she worked for Barclay's in the 80s or something.

 

I've never seen the level of goalpost movery I've seen in the last few months. A working class lawyer who was knee deep in social justice cases from word go is an establishment stooge because....well just because.

 

RLB, a lawyer from Frodsham who worked on the pfi sell-off of NHS estates is in fact a working class salford lass, because.

 

Now the vibe seems to be "the left" gave Starmer the benefit of the doubt (they didn't) because he'd offered them an olive branch (he did, but didn't have to, he won by a landslide) and he failed his first test with some kind of outrageous maneuver (he apparently asked her to do something and she refused so he sacked her). 

 

It's like Corbyn putting David Miliband in his shadow cabinet even though he doesn't have to, Miliband does something stupid after only a matter of weeks, gets told to do something about it, refuses, gets binned off, then all of a sudden the talk is of betrayals and the need to start some planned organised resistance behind the scenes.

 

Surely you see the irony here of people who claim corbyn was never given a shot and was undermined from word go, now themselves refusing to give someone a chance and working to undermine someone who wasn't the annointed one.

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The fact that senior members of the party actually wanted and worked for election defeat is what pushed me over the edge. Unless these people are kicked out of the party ,after due process etc, then Starmer can say whatever he wants but I will judge him on that.

 

Maybe after years of being called HARD left, for wanting social democracy and accountability in the party is a reason people use the  "centrists" tag.

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13 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

The fact that senior members of the party actually wanted and worked for election defeat is what pushed me over the edge. Unless these people are kicked out of the party ,after due process etc, then Starmer can say whatever he wants but I will judge him on that.

 

Maybe after years of being called HARD left, for wanting social democracy and accountability in the party is a reason people use the  "centrists" tag.

I don't like the labels that get thrown around, (this certainly isn't aimed at you) but often I've seen terms like Blairism and centrist being used as just lazy ways to discount someone else's opinion. "Oh you're just a Centrist anyway!" "What's that?" "I don't know..."

 

Personally my own politics is closer to John McDonnell. I liked the stuff he talked about around state run banks pumping money into businesses, for instance.

 

I would never describe Corbyn as a virtue signaller as his beliefs were genuine and longstanding, but in the age he came to power he attracted a lot of virtue signallers IMO, people who liked waving flags and protesting outside the Tory party conference. I also think the man himself - and this is just my personal opinion - cared more about international issues, he'd probably be better at Greenpeace or Amnesty or some such.

 

I'd personally rather see a pragmatic way of winning power, and then practical, workable policies designed to enact social justice in the UK. I want to see evidence that there's internal structures and longterm strategies being put in place to make those things happen. That's what I want from a Labour party.

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45 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

Jesus you're kidding aren't you mate? Starmer hadn't even taken the reins and it was hatchet jobs agogo on the likes of the canary, most of it bollocks too.

...

Quote

I've never seen the level of goalpost movery I've seen in the last few months. A working class lawyer who was knee deep in social justice cases from word go is an establishment stooge because....well just because.

 

RLB, a lawyer from Frodsham who worked on the pfi sell-off of NHS estates is in fact a working class salford lass, because.

 

I'm sure the Canary having a go really scared him and caused a ton of problems, as opposed to the amount of crap Corbyn got from the moment it looked like he was going to win the leadership and the establishment started going after him. You couldn't even read the Guardian without regular hit pieces never mind the rest of them. So it doesn't compare really.

 

And working class lawyer knee-deep in social justice cases as opposed to one selling off the NHS, well yeah you could put it like that. Or you could say Starmer was a working class lawyer who was knee-deep in social justice cases, got a knighthood, joined the Trilateral Commission, was part of the coup against Corbyn, campaigned for us the remain in the EU which was a big cause of the election result that was so bad, signed on to all of the BoD's fucking stupid demands, and then sacked his main leadership campaign rival from the cabinet.

 

And yeah I know RLB signed up to the BoD stuff as well, I didn't agree with that either.

 

We're talking about how Corbyn was the anointed one, but to some Starmer can't have a bad word said against him and any criticism from anywhere at all is just dismissed while thousands of left wing voters leave the party.

 

It'd be good if we could admit that he does have some faults at least, because if not those going on about how Corbyn had a cult will just be doing the exact same thing for the current leader instead.

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27 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

It'd be good if we could admit that he does have some faults at least, because if not those going on about how Corbyn had a cult will just be doing the exact same thing for the current leader instead.

Who's claimed to love the guy or defended him at every turn on this thread? I've said a few times I don't know if he's the answer or not but that he deserves a chance, as Corbyn did.

 

His faults so far though, which seemingly weren't an issue until he stood against Corbyn's choice as his successor (if you can find much Canary, Morning Star and Momentum Ire about him pre leadership contest you've got better Internet research skills than me) stem from the fact he is a 'knight of the realm' (they never describe him just as a knight for some reason), 'looks and talks a bit like Blair', is a millionaire (as is Corbyn and probably most people who own a house in London) and, I forget the rest.

 

I can't imagine giving corbyn grief because he won and my choice didn't, or because I didn't like his beard and assumed he was therefore not enough like Tony Blair, or because he made jam and that's not a respectable pass time for a budding PM.

 

Basically, anyone who wasn't long Bailey was always going to get a rough ride. And that was purely and simply because she was hand picked by people around a leadership that lost and lost badly. That's not healthy on any level.

 

Starmer won the labour vote by some margin, the idea thay he's on some kind of probation that's been mercifully granted to him by a 'faction' that was party to the worst Labour election defeat since 1935 is outright crackers and insulting to everyone who voted for him. 

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59 minutes ago, Scooby Dudek said:

The fact that senior members of the party actually wanted and worked for election defeat is what pushed me over the edge. Unless these people are kicked out of the party ,after due process etc, then Starmer can say whatever he wants but I will judge him on that.

 

Maybe after years of being called HARD left, for wanting social democracy and accountability in the party is a reason people use the  "centrists" tag.

So because some people who wanted social democracy (so do I) and accountability (yep, same here) were called hard left, I’m called a centrist? I mean, I appreciate the explanation, but that m not sure it’s accurate or fair. First I had Stig calling me a fake left phoney and now Sir Rog calling needs a centrist. Why? Not because of policy but because of Corbyn. It comes not from a rebuttal of being called ‘hard left’ but from the mistaken view that Corbynistas is the left and if you thought he was wrong then you can’t be left wing. It’s so fucking myopic. Corbynites need to start thinking as individuals again, imo. 

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9 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

Basically, anyone who wasn't long Bailey was always going to get a rough ride. And that was purely and simply because she was hand picked by people around a leadership that lost and lost badly. That's not healthy on any level.

 

Starmer won the labour vote by some margin, the idea thay he's on some kind of probation that's been mercifully granted to him by a 'faction' that was party to the worst Labour election defeat since 1935 is outright crackers and insulting to everyone who voted for him. 

 

Agreed that he did well to win when it looked hard for that to happen, I don't see him as being on some type of probation though because he seems to have enough support to do what he wants. At the same time though it looks like he's also doing a good job of alienating a lot of those that supported Corbyn and/or RLB, which can't be good considering the amount of support they had and the idea being that he was going to unite both sides of the party.

 

And it could be that most/all in here have mentioned some faults of Starmer over the course of the thread too, maybe with more here being sick of what's going on and less likely to be bothered about posting on the subject it makes it seem more one-sided. It does seem like any criticism of him isn't really taken seriously at times but maybe that doesn't matter so much at the moment either. If things carry on looking so divided though over the course of the next fews years it could turn into a more serious problem if a lot of people are leaving the party and/or deciding not to vote Labour because of it.

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20 minutes ago, Numero said:

So because some people who wanted social democracy (so do I) and accountability (yep, same here) were called hard left, I’m called a centrist? I mean, I appreciate the explanation, but that m not sure it’s accurate or fair. First I had Stig calling me a fake left phoney and now Sir Rog calling needs a centrist. Why? Not because of policy but because of Corbyn. It comes not from a rebuttal of being called ‘hard left’ but from the mistaken view that Corbynistas is the left and if you thought he was wrong then you can’t be left wing. It’s so fucking myopic. Corbynites need to start thinking as individuals again, imo. 

I was explaining why I may throw the word about, as a rebuttal to the stupid hard left shite. Thanks for explaining to me how my opinion of what I do is wrong. 

Next time I want to know why I am doing something I will ask you.

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1 minute ago, Scooby Dudek said:

I was explaining why I may throw the word about, as a rebuttal to the stupid hard left shite. Thanks for explaining to me how my opinion of what I do is wrong. 

Next time I want to know why I am doing something I will ask you.

No worries. PMs always open. 
 

To be fair, I asked a question. If that was an obscure reference rather than to Sir Rog just calling me a centrist, then I apologise. 

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1 hour ago, Section_31 said:

I don't like the labels that get thrown around, (this certainly isn't aimed at you) but often I've seen terms like Blairism and centrist being used as just lazy ways to discount someone else's opinion. "Oh you're just a Centrist anyway!" "What's that?" "I don't know..."

 

Personally my own politics is closer to John McDonnell. I liked the stuff he talked about around state run banks pumping money into businesses, for instance.

 

I would never describe Corbyn as a virtue signaller as his beliefs were genuine and longstanding, but in the age he came to power he attracted a lot of virtue signallers IMO, people who liked waving flags and protesting outside the Tory party conference. I also think the man himself - and this is just my personal opinion - cared more about international issues, he'd probably be better at Greenpeace or Amnesty or some such.

 

I'd personally rather see a pragmatic way of winning power, and then practical, workable policies designed to enact social justice in the UK. I want to see evidence that there's internal structures and longterm strategies being put in place to make those things happen. That's what I want from a Labour party.

I agree with pretty much all of that, but, I don't believe the certain sections care more about international issues, maybe a lot see them as one and the same. Equality everywhere etc. A lot also, imo, is down to media (I know) and where Corbyn had a real issue was in deflection of loaded questions. War in the middle East becomes would you press the nuclear button. Terrorist attack becomes do you believe in shoot to kill. Corbyn and his team should have had stock answers for these types of questions and actually turned them towards domestic policies. They failed terribly in that.

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6 minutes ago, Anubis said:

Lanny speaking up about Palestine as well.

 

 

 

All with permission from Starmer. This is exactly what I said the other day about RLB; I wouldn’t have touched her retweet with a shitty stick, but of course there’s nothing wrong with real things being raised. Very few of his enemies who claimed him as a Tory and a shill for Israel the other day have much positive to say about it though. Just looking for the next thing they can go at. By the way, this is how a serious party should act, no matter if it’s the Labour party, Tory party, Greens, or whatever. You get your policies in sync, you act together with one voice, and you go for it. 

 

You see, Starmer seems to be less worried about fringe elements, loudmouths on both sides, and more worried about what the reality of a situation is. That’s that it is wrong to retweet inaccurate, lazy stuff like the section of Peake’s article, but that it is right to raise real things that actually matter.
 

There seems to be a lefty-off going on about who is the better lefty or who is more left as if that somehow is the key ingredient in what makes good policy in a globalised world. It’s gatekeeping nonsense. It’s a purity test without the hand washing procedures. 

As somebody above said, he needs to be judged on his policies (as to where he is in the spectrum). If he rocks up with ‘sell off the NHS’ there’ll be nobody quicker to denounce the guy than me. If he wants to scale back the Welfare State then fuck him. If he wants to end regulation in the markets, sack him off. You know, things that would actually mark him out as a right winger. But, of course, it’s not those things that are happening. He sacked a Corbynite for being a twat that’s the problem. I don’t think those taking aim at their own party actually realise the damage they’re doing to their own cause. 

 

Thing is, he and his cabinet have decided to go back to drawing board and create policies that fit the modern world in the century ahead of us. I’ve no idea if they’ll be successful or if I’ll support him in the future - he’s not my Nan, I don’t owe him a damned thing - but I’d sooner them be doing that than try to regurgitate the politics of the last century. There’s a new, modern approach out there that can improve the lives of every day working people and serve them far better than are being served right now. Hopefully he finds them, because the fact is that Corbyn had his chance and fluffed it spectacularly. The left, who had a prime opportunity, should be the ones most pissed off about that. I am. If that makes me a centrist, a Blairite, a Tory to them... fine. 

 

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Numero said:

So because some people who wanted social democracy (so do I) and accountability (yep, same here) were called hard left, I’m called a centrist? I mean, I appreciate the explanation, but that m not sure it’s accurate or fair. First I had Stig calling me a fake left phoney and now Sir Rog calling needs a centrist. Why? Not because of policy but because of Corbyn. It comes not from a rebuttal of being called ‘hard left’ but from the mistaken view that Corbynistas is the left and if you thought he was wrong then you can’t be left wing. It’s so fucking myopic. Corbynites need to start thinking as individuals again, imo. 

If you blame Corbyn for everything you probably are a centrist like. 

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