L'pool '20 v Utd '99

[aRdja]

4 hours ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

Carra ahead of Gomez is insane. As much as I liked Carra, playing under Rafa and Houllier allowed players like him and Hyypia to play deep with players covering for them. The best parts of our defence means we can push our two fullbacks on and leave our rapid centre backs exposed. 

I don’t think it’s insane. Carra is a better defender than Gomez. You may prefer Gomez but most would pick Carra I reckon, given the options.

[TheDrowningMan]

There is no way that Schmeichel in 1999 was as good as Alisson is now.

I wouldn’t argue vociferously with anyone who, on the basis of his sheer consistency in excellent teams, selected him in a comparison spanning 92-99, but as imposing, sturdy and excellent at shot stopping as he was, Alisson’s all round game is on a different level. The only question is whether he’ll be able to maintain it for a similar length of time.

[Guest Alex_K]

 

2 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I don’t think it’s insane. Carra is a better defender than Gomez. You may prefer Gomez but most would pick Carra I reckon, given the options.

 He isn’t. Van Dijk/Gomez have conceded 1 goal in 11 games. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Laud Van Dijk but it’s a true partnership - those numbers aren’t there when Gomez isn’t there. Most of the games we don’t even have a DM like Mascherano or Hamann (Fabinho has been missing). Carragher was good but vast majority rated him below Terry/Ferdinand/Campbell/even King. I think you’ll struggle to find a physical attribute Carragher had over Gomez.

[Numero Veinticinco]

2 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I don’t think it’s insane. Carra is a better defender than Gomez. You may prefer Gomez but most would pick Carra I reckon, given the options.

You f course you don’t think it’s insane. But I’m a bit drunk, and I love ya.  We’re gonna win the league. 

[aRdja]

6 hours ago, Alex_K said:

 

 He isn’t. Van Dijk/Gomez have conceded 1 goal in 11 games. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Laud Van Dijk but it’s a true partnership - those numbers aren’t there when Gomez isn’t there. Most of the games we don’t even have a DM like Mascherano or Hamann (Fabinho has been missing). Carragher was good but vast majority rated him below Terry/Ferdinand/Campbell/even King. I think you’ll struggle to find a physical attribute Carragher had over Gomez.

I can understand why someone would pick Gomez; he’s a better ‘footballer’ and he’s much more athletic than Carra ever was. However Carra had better defensive attributes IMO e.g., He was a better tackler, he was much more aggressive, he was better in the air.

[Jose Jones]

5 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I can understand why someone would pick Gomez; he’s a better ‘footballer’ and he’s much more athletic than Carra ever was. However Carra had better defensive attributes IMO e.g., He was a better tackler, he was much more aggressive, he was better in the air.

I think Gomez is quite possibly better than Carra, but Carra gets the benefit of 15 years of memories right? Probably quite rightly too.

Same as those Mancs get the benefit of pundits memories of their whole careers.

 

One thing for sure though Gomez at 22 is a miles better centre back than Carra was at 22.

[Bobby Hundreds]

Carra has the Roy of the Rovers thing going, blood and guts all on the line the passion clear to see. Gomez is a more talented footballer with better physical attributes. In 2005 Carra was immense.

[Neil G]

On 12/02/2020 at 16:49, Jairzinho said:

Their 2009 side would batter their 1999 side. We'd twat both them. 

 

Our 2008-09 first XI, playing the way they did in the run-in - which they could and should have done all season - beats this side.

 

The squad depth was clearly inferior, but we were pretty lucky with injuries that season, and if that squad is used properly it goes toe to toe with this one all the way in the league.

[Jairzinho]

5 minutes ago, Neil G said:

 

Our 2008-09 first XI, playing the way they did in the run-in - which they could and should have done all season - beats this side.

 

The squad depth was clearly inferior, but we were pretty lucky with injuries that season, and if that squad is used properly it goes toe to toe with this one all the way in the league.

It would be interesting. I think the 2009 side wouldn't be strong enough on the flanks.

 

Fascinating to see what would happen in midfield. The 2009 side obviously had much better players there, but maybe our unit now would stop them. Who knows.

[aws]

This team at its best would just edge our 2009 team at its best. This team at its worst is streets ahead of our 2009 team at its worst. 

[Guest Alex_K]

09 at its best was basically the Torres/Gerrard show -- both with the greatest victories determined by them (the goals a piece at Old Trafford in the 4-1; Torres routinely giving Vidic the run around) & also the upsets (the 3-1 loss against Chelsea in Europe where Essien stormed Gerrard at Anfield; the points routinely dropped as soon as Torres was rested). As an overall 11, this side is way ahead of that side. Personally I think only Alonso, Torres, Gerrard make the grade from that 11 -- wouldn't even take that era of Mascherano into this team at the moment and Carragher was far too slow to play in an 11 like this.

[moof]

Our current team on its best day whoops every other team since English football was first invented in 1992 - and even before then 

[Jimmy Hills Chin]

4 hours ago, aws said:

This team at its best would just edge our 2009 team at its best. This team at its worst is streets ahead of our 2009 team at its worst. 

This doesn’t really make sense as Utd proved to be slightly better than the 2009 team and this present side of ours would have handed them their arse.

[aws]

3 hours ago, Jimmy Hills Chin said:

This doesn’t really make sense as Utd proved to be slightly better than the 2009 team and this present side of ours would have handed them their arse.

The 2009 wasn't consistent enough to win over a season. 

[Neil G]

9 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

It would be interesting. I think the 2009 side wouldn't be strong enough on the flanks.

 

Fascinating to see what would happen in midfield. The 2009 side obviously had much better players there, but maybe our unit now would stop them. Who knows.

It’s hard to make an informed comparison because we never saw the 08-09 side play to its full potential over a whole season.

 

You’re right, the midfield is the area where 08-09 has the biggest edge over 19-20, and that’s where I think it wins the game. Absolutely perfect setup with no weaknesses, loading the bullets for the best striker on the planet who’d also stroll into the current side.

[Neil G]

7 hours ago, aws said:

This team at its best would just edge our 2009 team at its best. This team at its worst is streets ahead of our 2009 team at its worst. 

Without wanting to reopen a decade-old argument, when the 08-09 side was at its worst it was imo firmly down to the manager’s tactics and approach, not the players’ quality or character.

[Guest Alex_K]

30 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Without wanting to reopen a decade-old argument, when the 08-09 side was at its worst it was imo firmly down to the manager’s tactics and approach, not the players’ quality or character.

N’gog, Lucas Leiva, Dossena, Riera, Babel, El Zhar, Insua. 135 (One hundred and thirty five) league appearances by that motley crew of mid-tablers (at best) in 08/09. Wrong. The players just weren’t good enough.

[Neil G]

10 minutes ago, Alex_K said:

N’gog, Lucas Leiva, Dossena, Riera, Babel, El Zhar, Insua. 135 (One hundred and thirty five) league appearances by that motley crew of mid-tablers (at best) in 08/09. Wrong. The players just weren’t good enough.

Should have been more specific, I meant when the team was at or close to full strength, which it consistently was in the run-in. Obviously the current squad strength is far superior. Although how many of those 135 were starts and how many were subs?

 

Even with all those players filling in, we should still have won the title. We dropped too many points against weak teams, especially at home, because of Rafa’s excessive caution. Swap the managers and this debate is turned on its head. Klopp wouldn’t have had us rein it in at 2-2 at home to Hull.
 

 

[Guest Alex_K]

32 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Should have been more specific, I meant when the team was at or close to full strength, which it consistently was in the run-in. Obviously the current squad strength is far superior. Although how many of those 135 were starts and how many were subs?

 

Even with all those players filling in, we should still have won the title. We dropped too many points against weak teams, especially at home, because of Rafa’s excessive caution. Swap the managers and this debate is turned on its head. Klopp wouldn’t have had us rein it in at 2-2 at home to Hull.
 

 

You would really try and argue that we should have won the title with 135 appearances from N’gog, Lucas Leiva, Dossena, Riera, Babel, El Zhar, Insua? I know internet forums are the preserve of people who never, ever want to retreat ground but come on, really? It takes some going to be faced with that objective fact and argue "well actually .. it wasn't because we had some demonstratively awful mid table/Championship players appearing with regularity .. it was because of a ruinous defensive mechanism from the manager". Two of those players played more than Fernando Torres that season. Did Lucas Leiva and Albert Riera make more appearances than Fernando Torres because of some sick glee from the manager? That team took 86 points, a really good total which would have won the league most seasons up to that point. It was pipped by a Champions League-final standard Utd. side. Probably would have won the league in seasons that Leicester, Chelsea and other Utd. sides did since. That's OK.

 

Anyway, off topic. This side is immense and when all is said and done people will look back on a core of 15 or so players whom all played 15+ games, objectively the weakest of whom is probably Divock Origi who himself was a scorer in a Champions League final and instrumental in us getting to Madrid to begin with. There's just really no comparison between this set of players and the 08/09 ones, except a few outliers like Torres, Gerrard & Alonso.

[Neil G]

1 hour ago, Alex_K said:

You would really try and argue that we should have won the title with 135 appearances from N’gog, Lucas Leiva, Dossena, Riera, Babel, El Zhar, Insua? I know internet forums are the preserve of people who never, ever want to retreat ground but come on, really? It takes some going to be faced with that objective fact and argue "well actually .. it wasn't because we had some demonstratively awful mid table/Championship players appearing with regularity .. it was because of a ruinous defensive mechanism from the manager". Two of those players played more than Fernando Torres that season. Did Lucas Leiva and Albert Riera make more appearances than Fernando Torres because of some sick glee from the manager? That team took 86 points, a really good total which would have won the league most seasons up to that point. It was pipped by a Champions League-final standard Utd. side. Probably would have won the league in seasons that Leicester, Chelsea and other Utd. sides did since. That's OK.

 

Anyway, off topic. This side is immense and when all is said and done people will look back on a core of 15 or so players whom all played 15+ games, objectively the weakest of whom is probably Divock Origi who himself was a scorer in a Champions League final and instrumental in us getting to Madrid to begin with. There's just really no comparison between this set of players and the 08/09 ones, except a few outliers like Torres, Gerrard & Alonso.

We finished 4 points behind the Mancs after dropping points at home to Stoke, Fulham, West Ham, Hull and Man City when they were shit. It’s hardly an outlandish claim is it?

 

Agree to disagree on how good the 08-09 side was, but I think bigging up the gap in quality between the current and previous sides does a disservice to Klopp. Part of the reason the gap appears so big is that unlike previous managers he’s consistently got the best out of the players in his squad. He deserves enormous credit for that, but it’s sidelined when people simply compare the quality of the players.

[s(k)aturation]

 

The 08/09 side wasn't as good as this one... but, draws cost us the title (a little bit similar to last year).  

I think we were plenty good enough in 08/09 to win 3 or 4 of those games, and thus the title - and think we were let down by a lack of intensity and industry in some of those 11 draws.

I also think that Rafa "facts" thing (when we were top) backfired psychologically, and contributed to lost points around that time.

 

For a side that was good enough to only lose twice, getting 91 points would not have been an unreasonable expectation.  08/09 was one that got away, I think.

 

And - among those 135 apps - Babel scored the winner against United at Anfield and Dossena scored at Old Trafford.

 

 

[LF:D]

Pointless seeing Keane try & do this last night. 

 

He wanted to show loyalty to his teammates & only had Van Dijk from LFC. 

[Guest Alex_K]

2 hours ago, LF:D said:

Pointless seeing Keane try & do this last night. 

 

He wanted to show loyalty to his teammates & only had Van Dijk from LFC. 

Keane is very unintelligent. It’s little wonder he was an absolutely hopeless manager.