Summer 2020 Transfer Thread

[aRdja]

32 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

It does, but I'm really on the fence with him. He's not a guaranteed starter for Wolves, his output is very poor and he gets loads of space to run at Wolves, not teams sitting on the 18 yard box that he would have here. But he has things you just can't reicate and with Mane and Salah teams can't double up on him. 

 

The fee just sounds to much of a risk. 

His output this season has been quite good actually.

[Lee909]

4 minutes ago, aRdja said:

His output this season has been quite good actually.

4 league goals isn't, especially from a team that relies on its wide forward to score its goals. 

[Ne Moe Imya]

1 hour ago, TheHowieLama said:

Henderson is older - just sayin

We haven't even talked about him but he's another that needs to be moved on or given more of a squad role at some point.

 

I know it's not a popular opinion but we just can't afford to be sentimental when it comes to these players. We are an outstanding side at the moment, and we can keep it going for another 2 years, probably, without much turnover, but at some point we will get ourselves into a hole with everyone aging at the same time.

 

It happened to United at the end of the Fergie era, he managed to squeak out a title right at the end of the team's peak that he had built in his last season but the next season with Moyes was a complete disaster as their older players declined and/or retired and the young players they brought in were nowhere near their level.

 

We actually have a serious problem looming in 3 years or so as many of our best players (VVD, Mane, Firmino, Salah, Gini, Henderson) all will be on the decline by then. We have some outstanding pieces that will be in their prime/coming into their prime then (Alisson, Minamino, Keita, Trent, Gomez) and a few that will still not have started the steeper part of their decline (Ox, Fabinho, Robertson) but that first group I mentioned will need to be replaced by then, at least as starters. Maybe we'll be lucky and 2-3 of them can still be effective starters at the level we're trying to reach, but it won't be all of them for sure.

 

I'm not saying we should panic, we have a few transfer windows to address the problem and some excellent talent like Hoever, Elliott, Brewster potentially coming through as well, but it is definitely something to keep in mind as we discuss how long a contract to give Gini.

[aRdja]

Just now, Lee909 said:

4 league goals isn't, especially from a team that relies on its wide forward to score its goals. 

and 8 assists.. so 12 direct goal involvements from 22 starts are good IMO.

[aRdja]

4 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

We actually have a serious problem looming in 3 years or so as many of our best players (VVD, Mane, Firmino, Salah, Gini, Henderson) all will be on the decline by then. We have some outstanding pieces that will be in their prime/coming into their prime then (Alisson, Minamino, Keita, Trent, Gomez) and a few that will still not have started the steeper part of their decline (Ox, Fabinho, Robertson) but that first group I mentioned will need to be replaced by then, at least as starters. Maybe we'll be lucky and 2-3 of them can still be effective starters at the level we're trying to reach, but it won't be all of them for sure.

In 3 years time Van Dijk won’t even be 32 yet. He’ll still be one of the best defenders in the world... and we should at least bench him?

[Lee909]

2 minutes ago, aRdja said:

and 8 assists.. so 12 direct goal involvements from 22 starts are good IMO.

 

We don't rely on the wide forwards getting assists or have a striker that will be there to finish though. It's a completely different set up. If he was to join he would be needing to double that goal output if he played regularly and if your paying upwards of 50ml he would be. 

 

 

[aRdja]

4 minutes ago, Lee909 said:

 

We don't rely on the wide forwards getting assists or have a striker that will be there to finish though. It's a completely different set up. If he was to join he would be needing to double that goal output if he played regularly and if your paying upwards of 50ml he would be. 

 

I’m in agreement with you yhat his output isn’t world class yet, but our forwards are better than Wolves’ IMO, so the fact that he creates goals from wide should be considered a positive because he’d bring something different to the team.

[3 Stacks]

1 hour ago, Lee909 said:

It does, but I'm really on the fence with him. He's not a guaranteed starter for Wolves, his output is very poor and he gets loads of space to run at Wolves, not teams sitting on the 18 yard box that he would have here. But he has things you just can't reicate and with Mane and Salah teams can't double up on him. 

 

The fee just sounds to much of a risk. 

Traore's value wouldn't be about current production, it would be about what can this super freak athlete with world class physical skills accomplish under one of the best attacking coaches of his generation. 

 

But yeah, the fee now would be past the point of reasonable. He's one where you had to buy him one team earlier. 

[Guest Alex_K]

25 minutes ago, aRdja said:

In 3 years time Van Dijk won’t even be 32 yet. He’ll still be one of the best defenders in the world... and we should at least bench him?

Exactly.

 

There should be a lot of mileage left in these team yet. You can probably look at Champions League winners over the past 10 years for some interesting context. When Chelsea won it in 2012, the spine of Drogba, Lampard, Terry was 34, 34 & 32 respectively. For Madrid you are looking at Ronaldo (33), Modric (33), Ramos (32). Even Barcrelona had Xavi (35), Alves (32), Iniesta (32).

 

Mane and Salah just turned 28 .. Van Dijk is 28 .. Wijnaldum is 29. Of course you never want to stand still as a club in terms of recruitment, but exit-planning for that group should be the absolute least of the worries. To be honest it wouldn't be especially surprising if this team was in its peak in 3 years with Gomez/TAA/Robertson/Fabinho developing then (the oldest of whom is just 26 now). Its a really young side.

[Ne Moe Imya]

19 minutes ago, aRdja said:

In 3 years time Van Dijk won’t even be 32 yet. He’ll still be one of the best defenders in the world... and we should at least bench him?

No, I'm pretty sure he'll be among the 2-3 from that first list I gave who will still be a starter. I'm not sure he'll still be among the best in the world, but he won't have declined too much from there, especially as he's such an athletic player and even if he loses a step he'll be good enough to start, even for a team trying to win the CL and league. He definitely won't be as good as he is now.

 

There are reasons he's in line to get a big contract extension and Gini is not, even if they're only 8 months apart in age. One reason is to keep the likes of PSG or Real Madrid from tempting Virgil away from us, another is that we can definitely sell him at age 32 for big money, even if he has started to decline, because another team will pay it. The biggest reason, though, is that he's not likely to decline as rapidly as players in midfield who don't start out as athletic or dominant as he is.

 

I think that apart from judging players on things like xG, getting the age curves right is one of the easiest low-hanging fruit to get right when you're letting analytics influence your squad-building. It's not at all intuitive, since players who are 32-34 get hyped up all the time by commentators and fans who think they are as good as they were when they were 27.

 

Put it this way - there's a reason why Liverpool, since Klopp took over, haven't spent any money on anyone older than van Dijk was at 26 when he came (apart from a few backup goalkeepers). Sometimes you might get a year or two (even three) of good value from an older player, but the last few years of the contract are absolute killers. Just go and ask United or Arsenal.

[aRdja]

10 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

No, I'm pretty sure he'll be among the 2-3 from that first list I gave who will still be a starter. I'm not sure he'll still be among the best in the world, but he won't have declined too much from there, especially as he's such an athletic player and even if he loses a step he'll be good enough to start, even for a team trying to win the CL and league. He definitely won't be as good as he is now.

 

There are reasons he's in line to get a big contract extension and Gini is not, even if they're only 8 months apart in age. One reason is to keep the likes of PSG or Real Madrid from tempting Virgil away from us, another is that we can definitely sell him at age 32 for big money, even if he has started to decline, because another team will pay it. The biggest reason, though, is that he's not likely to decline as rapidly as players in midfield who don't start out as athletic or dominant as he is.

 

I think that apart from judging players on things like xG, getting the age curves right is one of the easiest low-hanging fruit to get right when you're letting analytics influence your squad-building. It's not at all intuitive, since players who are 32-34 get hyped up all the time by commentators and fans who think they are as good as they were when they were 27.

 

Put it this way - there's a reason why Liverpool, since Klopp took over, haven't spent any money on anyone older than van Dijk was at 26 when he came (apart from a few backup goalkeepers). Sometimes you might get a year or two (even three) of good value from an older player, but the last few years of the contract are absolute killers. Just go and ask United or Arsenal.

You may not want to spend big money on players who are 32, but you don’t get rid of your own players because they’re 32, you move them on only if we have better players in the squad. I just don’t share the same level of urgency as you in this case.

[Scott_M]

5 hours ago, aRdja said:

In 3 years time Van Dijk won’t even be 32 yet. He’ll still be one of the best defenders in the world... and we should at least bench him?

If he avoids a serious injury, I’d say VVD could comfortably play at the top level well into his mid-30’s.

 

He might lose a yard of pace but his reading of the game is so good he rarely has to fully extend himself anyway.

[Scott_M]

If anybody thinks Klopp is going to ring every last drop out of an ageing squad and leave the next coach (especially if it’s Gerrard) on a bit of a hiding to nothing (like Ferguson did) then they obviously haven’t been paying attention. 

[Daisy]

38 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

If anybody thinks Klopp is going to ring every last drop out of an ageing squad and leave the next coach (especially if it’s Gerrard) on a bit of a hiding to nothing (like Ferguson did) then they obviously haven’t been paying attention. 

He might not have a choice with the minge bag owners we have. 

[Barrington Womble]

7 hours ago, aRdja said:

He’s a winger. He has some work to do on his decision making, but he really is an unstoppable force. When he decides to take a defender on, there’s really nothing a defender can do about it. There were some crazy stats around, showing that he’s the best dribbler in the world (highest % of successful take-ons), so surely that counts for something.

So the best dribbler in the world can't nail down a place at wolves? The message there is stats are not useful in isolation. 

 

So you're suggesting then we should bring him in as an alternative to Salah on the right? Which by default would push Elliot back? 

 

Honestly, I see he's a really useful impact player for wolves and if you could pick him up cheap (wages and fee) as a squad player, maybe ... But break the bank for him? No thanks. 

[Anubis]

12 hours ago, Doctor Troy said:

We need Kai Havertz....

 

11 hours ago, Hank Moody said:

Correct. 

Plus one.

[Scott_M]

My last word on this matter. 
 

It’s quite obvious some people here a either...

 

1) Not happy unless they are moaning.

2) Just have a negative outlook on stuff.
3) Cannot or refuse to see the bigger picture. 
4) A bit thick. 

5) A combination of all the above. 
 

Every counter point is always met with the same response. 
 

“Enjoy it, we’re gonna win the league” - Yeah but FSG are tight.

 

“Klopp leaving is 4 years away” - Yeah but FSG are tighter than a duck arse. 
 

“We have a number young players in the squad and talent coming through” - Yeah but FSG are tighter than a drum.

 

Its tiresome in the extreme & pointless even discussing. 
 

Youse worry yourselves into an early grave and I’ll have a great time enjoying the ride. 

[Anubis]

No one’s worrying themselves into an early grave, you soft get. 

[clockspeed]

1 hour ago, Anubis said:

 

Plus one.

Havertz is the game changer for the future. I would take no plus ones in next couple of windows if we get him secured. Him and sane at Bayern and probably haaland in a year or so would make them pretty formidable in European terms and domestically it would all be over before German season starts

[Barrington Womble]

1 hour ago, Scott_M said:

My last word on this matter. 
 

It’s quite obvious some people here a either...

 

1) Not happy unless they are moaning.

2) Just have a negative outlook on stuff.
3) Cannot or refuse to see the bigger picture. 
4) A bit thick. 

5) A combination of all the above. 
 

Every counter point is always met with the same response. 
 

“Enjoy it, we’re gonna win the league” - Yeah but FSG are tight.

 

“Klopp leaving is 4 years away” - Yeah but FSG are tighter than a duck arse. 
 

“We have a number young players in the squad and talent coming through” - Yeah but FSG are tighter than a drum.

 

Its tiresome in the extreme & pointless even discussing. 
 

Youse worry yourselves into an early grave and I’ll have a great time enjoying the ride. 

Bellend. 

[TheHowieLama]

10 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

Explain the relevance 

He is under contract until he is 33 - fair to say he may go downhill physically faster than Gini

[TheHowieLama]

10 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

 

We actually have a serious problem looming in 3 years or so as many of our best players (VVD, Mane, Firmino, Salah, Gini, Henderson) all will be on the decline by then.

I think you are lumping too many fellas together here - there are a couple years difference between this group.

 

[Anubis]

5 hours ago, clockspeed said:

Havertz is the game changer for the future. I would take no plus ones in next couple of windows if we get him secured. Him and sane at Bayern and probably haaland in a year or so would make them pretty formidable in European terms and domestically it would all be over before German season starts

I was the plus one agreeing with you both. I wasn’t asking for Havertz plus one.

[TheHowieLama]

7 minutes ago, Anubis said:

 I wasn’t asking for Havertz plus one.

Greedy

[clockspeed]

4 hours ago, Anubis said:

I was the plus one agreeing with you both. I wasn’t asking for Havertz plus one.

Got it read it totally wrong !