Coronavirus

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, The Gaul said:

Are you trying to claim every time someone sneazes they have time to get their hanky out? Also please make sure any evidence shows this covers both nose and mouth. Do you have evidence to back up this extordinary claim? While only anecdotal, I can with 100% confidence claim I have many a time sneazed unexpectedly and sometimes in public spaces. A mask for sure would have aided the decrease in the spread of the particles from my nose and mouth. 

It's a titanic struggle between logic and stubbornness. 

[Spy Bee]

On 24/07/2020 at 15:27, Mudface said:

How about these meta-studies, which show the opposite, even when the masks aren't surgical grade?

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-07-08-oxford-covid-19-study-face-masks-and-coverings-work-act-now

 

https://www.ucsf.edu/news/2020/06/417906/still-confused-about-masks-heres-science-behind-how-face-masks-prevent

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31142-9/fulltext

The first one argues against the benefits of RCT's, which seems a bit off to me. It seems to be very much theoretical. The second one is drawing correlation but not establishing causation - again, not very scientific. The third one seems to recommend N95 masks and eye protection.

 

I think if you are symptomatic, wearing a mask is sensible. If you are having symptomatic and having a staring competition, then it probably makes sense too. So far, I am far from convinced by that the policy is evidence based.

[Bjornebye]

1 minute ago, Spy Bee said:

The first one argues against the benefits of RCT's, which seems a bit off to me. It seems to be very much theoretical. The second one is drawing correlation but not establishing causation - again, not very scientific. The third one seems to recommend N95 masks and eye protection.

 

I think if you are symptomatic, wearing a mask is sensible. If you are having symptomatic and having a staring competition, then it probably makes sense too. So far, I am far from convinced by that the policy is evidence based.

So by that logic everyone should wear a mask incase someone who is symptomatic isn't wearing one around you? 

[Spy Bee]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

So by that logic everyone should wear a mask incase someone who is symptomatic isn't wearing one around you? 

Lost me there, pal.

[Bjornebye]

Just now, Spy Bee said:

Lost me there, pal.

I don't see how. 

[Sugar Ape]

Are these Aberdeen cases all linked to pubs?

 

 

[Spy Bee]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

I don't see how. 

Well I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that they protect the wearer. I've seen a few people express their opinion that they do.

[Spy Bee]

1 minute ago, Sugar Ape said:

Are these Aberdeen cases all linked to pubs?

 

 

My money would be on factory/factories

[Sugar Ape]

1 minute ago, Spy Bee said:

My money would be on factory/factories

I seen something a few days ago saying it had been traced to a bar or something but not sure if all the additional cases are linked to that as well. 

[Bjornebye]

2 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

Well I haven't seen any evidence suggesting that they protect the wearer. I've seen a few people express their opinion that they do.

YOU have just said that YOU think that if someone is symptomatic then it would be sensible to wear a mask. So in essence are saying that masks do have some benefit. So, by that logic, shouldn't everyone wear one? 

[Spy Bee]

1 minute ago, Bjornebye said:

YOU have just said that YOU think that if someone is symptomatic then it would be sensible to wear a mask. So in essence are saying that masks do have some benefit. So, by that logic, shouldn't everyone wear one? 

If they are symptomatic, they really shouldn't be leaving their house anyway. I think putting someone with a broken in a plaster cast is beneficial, but I don't advocate plaster casts for all.

[TheHowieLama]

You wear a mask in case you are asymptomatic - even a simp knows that.

[Jenson]

4 hours ago, Spy Bee said:

This is a mate of mine. YOu might want to check out this option

 

 

 

Like the look of them but £27.95 shipping to the UK?!!

[Spy Bee]

56 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Ok so medically approved masks are better than the cloth masks. I mean fuck me, how much did they get paid to study that? I'm pretty sure your statement initially was that wearing a mask causes more infections than not wearing a mask.... I might be wrong. Let's check. 

 

If either of you bollock brains would like evidence that masks help then look at the deaths rates in Japan and South Korea (where they all wears masks even cloth ones) compared to the UK. 

 

58 minutes ago, Mudface said:

So, reading through that: they had a healthcare worker group wearing cloth masks, a group wearing 'medical' masks and a group which comprised of 37% medical, 8% cloth and the remainder a mixture of both. The result was there were more infections in the cloth mask only group. 

 

The obvious conclusion, right in the abstract, is that health care workers should wear medical masks. Nowhere does it say that wearing cloth masks is worse than no mask at all or that the general public shouldn't wear masks. Additionally, the cloth masks used in the study were 2 layer cotton masks, the medical ones were 3 layer- the WHO recommends three layer masks for public use.

 

Are you lads feeling okay?

 

Conclusions

This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

[Spy Bee]

2 minutes ago, Jenson said:

 

Like the look of them but £27.95 shipping to the UK?!!

Is it? I will have a word with him now, that cannot be right. He's sending some other stuff over to us tomorrow, so I'll get him to ship some to us and we can dispatch.

[Mudface]

1 minute ago, Spy Bee said:

 

 

Are you lads feeling okay?

 

Conclusions

This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

They caution against the use of cloth masks versus medical masks in health care environments (HCW = healthcare worker). They don't caution against the use of cloth masks versus no mask at all.

[Spy Bee]

2 minutes ago, Mudface said:

They caution against the use of cloth masks versus medical masks in health care environments (HCW = healthcare worker). They don't caution against the use of cloth masks versus no mask at all.

Results

The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm

[Spy Bee]

8 minutes ago, Jenson said:

 

Like the look of them but £27.95 shipping to the UK?!!

Drop me a DM if you want some and I'll sort it for you.

[Mudface]

2 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

Results

The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm

The 'control group' was 37% medical, 8% cloth and the remainder a mixture of the both. It wasn't a group who never wore anything, thank fuck. Also, the entire study was conducted on health care workers.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

 

 

Are you lads feeling okay?

 

Conclusions

This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

Probably (read certainly) makes little sense to refer to a something from April unless you are unable to support this "opinion" realistically.

 

Might make more sense to look into statements from the last couple weeks.

 

John's Hopkins - 

New information is emerging every day on how the new coronavirus spreads and the best ways to protect against COVID-19. The most effective protections include washing your hands frequently with soap and water and practicing physical distancing. However, wearing cloth face masks or coverings in public when physical distancing can’t be observed does offer protection against spread of COVID-19.

 

Mayo Clinic -

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus.

 

So why weren't face masks recommended at the start of the pandemic? At that time, experts didn't know the extent to which people with COVID-19 could spread the virus before symptoms appeared. Nor was it known that some people have COVID-19 but don't have any symptoms. Both groups can unknowingly spread the virus to others.

These discoveries led public health groups to do an about-face on face masks. The World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now include face masks in their recommendations for slowing the spread of the virus. The CDC recommends cloth face masks for the public and not the surgical and N95 masks needed by health care providers.

 

 

[Spy Bee]

7 minutes ago, Mudface said:

The 'control group' was 37% medical, 8% cloth and the remainder a mixture of the both. It wasn't a group who never wore anything, thank fuck. Also, the entire study was conducted on health care workers.

The control arm was ‘standard practice’, which comprised mask use in a high proportion of participants. As such (without a no-mask control), the finding of a much higher rate of infection in the cloth mask arm could be interpreted as harm caused by cloth masks, efficacy of medical masks, or most likely a combination of both.

[Bjornebye]

21 minutes ago, Spy Bee said:

If they are symptomatic, they really shouldn't be leaving their house anyway. I think putting someone with a broken in a plaster cast is beneficial, but I don't advocate plaster casts for all.

Oh yeah broken bones are contagious. 

[Barrington Womble]

4 minutes ago, TheHowieLama said:

Probably (read certainly) makes little sense to refer to a something from April unless you are unable to support this "opinion" realistically.

 

Might make more sense to look into statements from the last couple weeks.

 

John's Hopkins - 

New information is emerging every day on how the new coronavirus spreads and the best ways to protect against COVID-19. The most effective protections include washing your hands frequently with soap and water and practicing physical distancing. However, wearing cloth face masks or coverings in public when physical distancing can’t be observed does offer protection against spread of COVID-19.

 

Mayo Clinic -

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus.

 

So why weren't face masks recommended at the start of the pandemic? At that time, experts didn't know the extent to which people with COVID-19 could spread the virus before symptoms appeared. Nor was it known that some people have COVID-19 but don't have any symptoms. Both groups can unknowingly spread the virus to others.

These discoveries led public health groups to do an about-face on face masks. The World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now include face masks in their recommendations for slowing the spread of the virus. The CDC recommends cloth face masks for the public and not the surgical and N95 masks needed by health care providers.

 

 

I think it's also important to think of the behavioural impact of wearing masks. I've read a couple of things that states their value is way beyond just stopping the spread of particles because the constant visual reminder that there is a threat keeps us focussed on things such as keeping distance, washing hands and not touching our mouths nose and eyes. One article I read quoting a report was saying that actually could have greater impact than the wearing of the masks themselves. 

[Spy Bee]

2 minutes ago, Bjornebye said:

Oh yeah broken bones are contagious. 

My analogy was simply to illustrate that I don't necessarily think that a one-size fits all policy is the best for this. I think a bit of nuance is important. I really can't stand the deliberate removal of nuance.

[TheHowieLama]

3 minutes ago, The Gaul said:

I think it's also important to think of the behavioural impact of wearing masks. I've read a couple of things that states their value is way beyond just stopping the spread of particles because the constant visual reminder that there is a threat keeps us focussed on things such as keeping distance, washing hands and not touching our mouths nose and eyes. One article I read quoting a report was saying that actually could have greater impact than the wearing of the masks themselves. 

TBH, as I stated before it doesn't make sense to even discuss with some. Their reticence to do so has nothing to do with science - that is a deflection.

It is amazing the lengths some will go to try to justify the behavior. Strange really.