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Numero Veinticinco

The New Leader of the Labour Party

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7 hours ago, Rushies tash said:

Regardless of whoever is elected, if they dont toe the neoliberal line, they'll he crucified in the press. Until something is done to redress the overwhelmingly right wing bias of all media in this country, I fear we'll be living in a, if not one party state,  then a one ideological state for the foreseeable future. Fucking depressing.  And as has even alluded to above, if Labour revert to Tory-lite centrism just to appease Murdoch etc. then alot of people, myself included, will he turned off politics for good.

The thing is, as much as I want a Kinnock/Brown left of Blair, right of Corbyn character, I think the Sun, Mail & Telegraph and their billionaire backers now know that they can install a partner-beating, child-denying, phone-stealing, fridge-hiding, ‘bum boys’ picanninie, letterbox, de Pfeffel, bendy bananas, sacked from the front bench, sacked frim

the Times, interview-dodging, ‘no media here’, ‘Jews control the media’, Russian funding report suppressing, woozy Hay stack into Downing St, so there is no need for them ever to cosy up to a left of centre leader of any stripe. They sold the most odious, ignorant, thick as pigshit empathy vacuum as a man of the people and the people bought it.

 

Their playbook will be to back anyone who turns a blind eye to environmental catastrophe, keeps tax low for the ultra rich, and keep wages low for everyone else. They will fuel the campaigns of the amoral chancers who support their death cult by feeding them populist panics on their front pages. It’s been immigration, ‘political correctness’ (aka compassion) and Europe for years. It’ll be the death penalty in 5 years. Make elections about culture wars that decent politicians can’t possibly win and divert from the rank injustice that they want to perpetuate in this country and globally. The playbook has worked in the US, Australia and here. 

 

A more marketable leader who didn’t miss open goals and who is actually capable of leading would help massively, but I’m not sure any Labour leader will stand a chance. The current shower are at least as unpopular as Major’s muppets were in 1997 and the economy is worse, but if you are not politically engaged and you are exposed to headlines in 4 or 5 papers every day about the alleged deficiencies of a labour leader and panics about the culture war issue of the moment you can easily be influenced. For fuck’s sake, they smeared the previous leader for the way he put a pig in his mouth, preferring to ignore the way in which is opponent put himself in a pig’s mouth. 

 

This is the despair.

 

The solution has to be to elect a leader who is less likely to do the media’s work for them and who is sufficiently organised and thick skinned to deal with the pressure. They have to be able to unite Corbynites and Blairites and if they have a chance of taking down this perma-surprised haystack they will do that.

 

They have to support a trade deal that is business friendly and that supports the social chapter rights gained in 1992. They have to support Scottish independence despite the electoral disadvantage that brings. They have to support radical and workable House of Lords reform to outflank Farage’s latest weirdness - this should be a strong second chamber elected by PR with a preferred candidate list at the same time as the GE. They have to be seen to stand up to Trump, Putin and China. They have to support environmentalism in all its forms. There has to be a massive emphasis on public service via community charities. Nationalisation would be good but is not a massive priority. Capping energy prices, taxing fossil fuels and subsiding green energy are all more important. Free broadband (not necessarily via nationalisation) was a great idea. There has to be a generational settlement that provides some funding for dementia care while acknowledging that those who receive it have benefitted from historical house price inflation, and that their kids and grandkids need access to housing. There should be a pledge to return homelessness and NHS waiting lists  to 2009 levels and to start a savings and investment scheme to fund medical research and NHS drug research. There should be a review of working hours and tax incentives to companies providing 4-day working weeks. 

 

There should be a lot more. 

 

This is the hope.

 

 

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2 hours ago, rubble-rouser said:

The thing is, as much as I want a Kinnock/Brown left of Blair, right of Corbyn character, I think the Sun, Mail & Telegraph and their billionaire backers now know that they can install a partner-beating, child-denying, phone-stealing, fridge-hiding, ‘bum boys’ picanninie, letterbox, de Pfeffel, bendy bananas, sacked from the front bench, sacked frim

the Times, interview-dodging, ‘no media here’, ‘Jews control the media’, Russian funding report suppressing, woozy Hay stack into Downing St, so there is no need for them ever to cosy up to a left of centre leader of any stripe. They sold the most odious, ignorant, thick as pigshit empathy vacuum as a man of the people and the people bought it.

 

Their playbook will be to back anyone who turns a blind eye to environmental catastrophe, keeps tax low for the ultra rich, and keep wages low for everyone else. They will fuel the campaigns of the amoral chancers who support their death cult by feeding them populist panics on their front pages. It’s been immigration, ‘political correctness’ (aka compassion) and Europe for years. It’ll be the death penalty in 5 years. Make elections about culture wars that decent politicians can’t possibly win and divert from the rank injustice that they want to perpetuate in this country and globally. The playbook has worked in the US, Australia and here. 

 

A more marketable leader who didn’t miss open goals and who is actually capable of leading would help massively, but I’m not sure any Labour leader will stand a chance. The current shower are at least as unpopular as Major’s muppets were in 1997 and the economy is worse, but if you are not politically engaged and you are exposed to headlines in 4 or 5 papers every day about the alleged deficiencies of a labour leader and panics about the culture war issue of the moment you can easily be influenced. For fuck’s sake, they smeared the previous leader for the way he put a pig in his mouth, preferring to ignore the way in which is opponent put himself in a pig’s mouth. 

 

This is the despair.

 

The solution has to be to elect a leader who is less likely to do the media’s work for them and who is sufficiently organised and thick skinned to deal with the pressure. They have to be able to unite Corbynites and Blairites and if they have a chance of taking down this perma-surprised haystack they will do that.

 

They have to support a trade deal that is business friendly and that supports the social chapter rights gained in 1992. They have to support Scottish independence despite the electoral disadvantage that brings. They have to support radical and workable House of Lords reform to outflank Farage’s latest weirdness - this should be a strong second chamber elected by PR with a preferred candidate list at the same time as the GE. They have to be seen to stand up to Trump, Putin and China. They have to support environmentalism in all its forms. There has to be a massive emphasis on public service via community charities. Nationalisation would be good but is not a massive priority. Capping energy prices, taxing fossil fuels and subsiding green energy are all more important. Free broadband (not necessarily via nationalisation) was a great idea. There has to be a generational settlement that provides some funding for dementia care while acknowledging that those who receive it have benefitted from historical house price inflation, and that their kids and grandkids need access to housing. There should be a pledge to return homelessness and NHS waiting lists  to 2009 levels and to start a savings and investment scheme to fund medical research and NHS drug research. There should be a review of working hours and tax incentives to companies providing 4-day working weeks. 

 

There should be a lot more. 

 

This is the hope.

 

 

Brilliant post, but it's the hope that kills you. Sorry bud, but I'm still feeling a bit despondent about the power of the print media for anything to change in the near future. I fear for the country that my kids are going to grow up in.

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4 hours ago, rubble-rouser said:

They sold the most odious, ignorant, thick as pigshit empathy vacuum as a man of the people and the people bought it.

 

I don't think they'd ever have pulled this off if he wasn't backing Brexit and Labour were offering a 2nd referendum. As stupid as I think Brexit is now, at least because of the problems it'll cause so many people, a lot of voters went to the Tories to have the referendum result respected. Without that we'd have never seen this result, and they won't have that backing them up next time if Brexit "gets done".

 

Of course there's other reasons, like Corbyn having such a long history in politics that gave the right decades worth of stuff to trawl through and twist into their own propaganda. But I think if Brexit is carried out like the Tories promised, 5 more years of austerity or austerity light has taken place, and Labour have a decent leader next, the next result won't be anywhere near as bad as this one.

 

This is related and I think it's a good point :

 

 

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7 hours ago, arthur friedenreich said:

His kids are cunts too. To be fair, old Rupert wasn’t too big a cunt in his youth, but his kids have only ever known cuntishness

The current hot take over here on Old Rupe:

 

https://twitter.com/mikecarlton01/status/1206089440822607872?s=21

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4 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

I don't think they'd ever have pulled this off if he wasn't backing Brexit and Labour were offering a 2nd referendum. As stupid as I think Brexit is now, at least because of the problems it'll cause so many people, a lot of voters went to the Tories to have the referendum result respected. Without that we'd have never seen this result, and they won't have that backing them up next time if Brexit "gets done".

 

Of course there's other reasons, like Corbyn having such a long history in politics that gave the right decades worth of stuff to trawl through and twist into their own propaganda. But I think if Brexit is carried out like the Tories promised, 5 more years of austerity or austerity light has taken place, and Labour have a decent leader next, the next result won't be anywhere near as bad as this one.

 

This is related and I think it's a good point :

 

 

The result was based on millions of people being as thick as pigshit and that won't change anytime soon due to the tories constantly underfunding state education to fund tax cuts for the rich. The 'vote against your own best interests' playbook is on its 100th edition and is still being used as effectively as ever.

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53 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The result was based on millions of people being as thick as pigshit and that won't change anytime soon due to the tories constantly underfunding state education to fund tax cuts for the rich.

 

It was largely because of Brexit :

 

JGXUYvI.jpg

 

But what you say about education could be equally relevant :

 

ItUGGEC.jpg

 

I wouldn't normally like getting info from Sky News (where those are from) but they're part of this thread and it was the most recent graph of that type I remember seeing :

 

 

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57 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

The result was based on millions of people being as thick as pigshit and that won't change anytime soon due to the tories constantly underfunding state education to fund tax cuts for the rich. The 'vote against your own best interests' playbook is on its 100th edition and is still being used as effectively as ever.

Half the people are more stupid than the average person.  So, ‘the many’ that you lot are so keen to help are just too dumb to appreciate it? 

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3 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Half the people are more stupid than the average person.  So, ‘the many’ that you lot are so keen to help are just too dumb to appreciate it? 

 

Were you defending them after the EU referendum or have you just flipped now because they're Tories?

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16 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Were you defending them after the EU referendum or have you just flipped now because they're Tories?

No, Brexit is a stupid idea. I’m no longer a Tory either.  Keep up.  

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27 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

It was largely because of Brexit :

 

JGXUYvI.jpg

 

But what you say about education could be equally relevant :

 

ItUGGEC.jpg

 

I wouldn't normally like getting info from Sky News (where those are from) but they're part of this thread and it was the most recent graph of that type I remember seeing :

 

 

 

Interesting, that. The whole lot here - 

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1205785072244269056.html

 

1/

2005 — Lab vote share in England, 35%
Lab seats in England, 286

2019 — Lab vote share in England, 34%
Lab seats in England, 180 
2/

That is quite a contrast and one I think worth pausing on, although such is the sectarian madness of the Labour party that simply highlight information like this is somehow seen as "making excuses" 
3/

It goes without saying Labour will go nowhere unless it can (to borrow the title of the 2005 manifesto) go "forward, not back" under the existing rules of the electoral game 
4/

The single biggest difference with that year is, of course, that the Tories are hugely up (by 12 points of UK-wide ballot). And this does represent a real shift to the right, because the other big change has been a corresponding collapse of the centre in the form of the LDs 
5/

All politics is relative, so Labour is bound to pay a heavy price for this.

But still, to lose over 100 English MPs off what is roughly a six-point swing between these two years is extraordinary.

Suggests problem is not only about the number of votes, but where they are 
6/

I never had much confidence about what Corbyn would do to Lab's vote share, & it turned to be something v different in 2017 and 2019. But from the very beginning (& i can remember chatting to @rafaelbehr in Corbyn's earliest days) I was convinced he'd damage its distribution 
mentions 7/

Votes were bound to pile up in student towns and diverse inner-cities, where they would bring in few extra seats

At the same time they were always likely to fall away in towns and suburbs where there is more of a premium on patriotism 
mentions 8/

We saw the first half of this at work in 2017, with the 75%+ Labour shares in Hackney and Walthamstow

Only now, as the overall tide goes out, is the susceptibility to the second exposed 
9/

Two clues about this divergence c/o @drjennings’s excellent thread

Brexit really has inflamed itELvYR6cXsAA_TY8.jpg
mentions 11/

The cultural front is going to be fraught for ANY Labour leader who wants to try and hold on to its metropolitan voters and members, while also reconnecting with all the communities it lost on Thursday 
mentions 12/

We can see same dilemmas in the US

When i was a child coal-rich West Virginia was deemed safe Democratic, now it's safe Republican. Dems are said to fear parts of rust belt (marginal in 2016) are now slipping away for good, & their only strategy has to be growing elsewhere 
mentions 13/

Forget Labour's partisan interests. For the good of society as a whole, it has to be hoped that a Trumpian politics of resentful and rageful nostalgia does not forever displace an older spirit of solidarity our own former mining communities 
mentions 14/

So, looking the electoral map, the first conclusions I'd draw is that the next Labour leader, from whatever wing, will have an exceptionally difficult job to do in trying to revive the old coalition. Members should not vote on faction, but look for creativity & talent 
mentions 15/

Even with a decent leader, though, deep demographics (such as the rapid ageing of our towns) mean Labour won't get that ultra-efficient map from 2005 back 
mentions 16/

Lab's traditional defensiveness about redrawing electoral boundaries may now be displaced (as i've been discussing with @election_data)

In the 80s, new boundaries meant more 'Tory suburb' seats, fewer in cities. These days, it's more likely to be more cities, fewer towns 
mentions 17/

The bone-headed tribal resistance to PR also needs to go—and urgently. It's a point of principle, but for anyone who is not keen on Bo Jo's hard Brexit, it is also about self-interest: look at @StephenDFisher's analysis of the map if you doubt it
mentions 18/

Before you can get PR or other reform you have to make progress under current rules, which means getting over the old tribal refusal to co-operate with other parties

Even before we get to Scotland, the 2005 alliance isn't coming back, still less that of 1945. You need help! 
mentions 19/

The most important lesson of the lot is probably to look outward — thinking about how things look outside your own local community and immediate circle, and not squandering energy on spats within your own tribe 
mentions 20/

While the challenges are daunting, these are fluid times, and things can shift fast. The new Conservative coalition, just as much as the old Labour one, is decidedly fragile

I'll shut up with my "cheer up" piece from yesterday
 
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25 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

Half the people are more stupid than the average person.  So, ‘the many’ that you lot are so keen to help are just too dumb to appreciate it? 

Yes,that is unfortunately how it works. What right wing parties do is cut back on public funded education because well educated(or at least educated to a good median level) see Scandanavian countries,are those people most likely to understand the nuances and context of what is actually happening. There was a superb documentary on Netflix not long ago (cannot remember its name) where Noam Chomsky listed the 10 or 12 steps to make ordinary people vote against their own best interests. It was largely about the USA but could equally be applied to many other countries especially the UK.

I left school in the early 1980s and it was very rare that most kids could not at least read or write and have a basic level of numeracy too. Now it seems there are many more that don't have any of these and that is extremely sad as these are people who are either apathetic about politics or very malleable and can be easily controlled by extremists, such as the people who fund and run the tory party. And before you get on your high horse about my use of the word 'extremists' not all extremists have swastika tattoos and skinheads,the very worst wear thousand dollar suits and sit behind desks and think purely in terms of money and self interest and have little interest in human lives outside of their own and their nearest and dearest.

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12 hours ago, arthur friedenreich said:

His kids are cunts too. To be fair, old Rupert wasn’t too big a cunt in his youth, but his kids have only ever known cuntishness

To be fair at least two of them probably have Blair as their dad , so only to be expected.

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26 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

Interesting, that. The whole lot here - 

 

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1205785072244269056.html

 

1/

2005 — Lab vote share in England, 35%
Lab seats in England, 286

2019 — Lab vote share in England, 34%
Lab seats in England, 180 
2/

That is quite a contrast and one I think worth pausing on, although such is the sectarian madness of the Labour party that simply highlight information like this is somehow seen as "making excuses" 
3/

It goes without saying Labour will go nowhere unless it can (to borrow the title of the 2005 manifesto) go "forward, not back" under the existing rules of the electoral game 
4/

The single biggest difference with that year is, of course, that the Tories are hugely up (by 12 points of UK-wide ballot). And this does represent a real shift to the right, because the other big change has been a corresponding collapse of the centre in the form of the LDs 
5/

All politics is relative, so Labour is bound to pay a heavy price for this.

But still, to lose over 100 English MPs off what is roughly a six-point swing between these two years is extraordinary.

Suggests problem is not only about the number of votes, but where they are 
6/

I never had much confidence about what Corbyn would do to Lab's vote share, & it turned to be something v different in 2017 and 2019. But from the very beginning (& i can remember chatting to @rafaelbehr in Corbyn's earliest days) I was convinced he'd damage its distribution 
mentions 7/

Votes were bound to pile up in student towns and diverse inner-cities, where they would bring in few extra seats

At the same time they were always likely to fall away in towns and suburbs where there is more of a premium on patriotism 
mentions 8/

We saw the first half of this at work in 2017, with the 75%+ Labour shares in Hackney and Walthamstow

Only now, as the overall tide goes out, is the susceptibility to the second exposed 
9/

Two clues about this divergence c/o @drjennings’s excellent thread

Brexit really has inflamed itELvYR6cXsAA_TY8.jpg
mentions 11/

The cultural front is going to be fraught for ANY Labour leader who wants to try and hold on to its metropolitan voters and members, while also reconnecting with all the communities it lost on Thursday 
mentions 12/

We can see same dilemmas in the US

When i was a child coal-rich West Virginia was deemed safe Democratic, now it's safe Republican. Dems are said to fear parts of rust belt (marginal in 2016) are now slipping away for good, & their only strategy has to be growing elsewhere 
mentions 13/

Forget Labour's partisan interests. For the good of society as a whole, it has to be hoped that a Trumpian politics of resentful and rageful nostalgia does not forever displace an older spirit of solidarity our own former mining communities 
mentions 14/

So, looking the electoral map, the first conclusions I'd draw is that the next Labour leader, from whatever wing, will have an exceptionally difficult job to do in trying to revive the old coalition. Members should not vote on faction, but look for creativity & talent 
mentions 15/

Even with a decent leader, though, deep demographics (such as the rapid ageing of our towns) mean Labour won't get that ultra-efficient map from 2005 back 
mentions 16/

Lab's traditional defensiveness about redrawing electoral boundaries may now be displaced (as i've been discussing with @election_data)

In the 80s, new boundaries meant more 'Tory suburb' seats, fewer in cities. These days, it's more likely to be more cities, fewer towns 
mentions 17/

The bone-headed tribal resistance to PR also needs to go—and urgently. It's a point of principle, but for anyone who is not keen on Bo Jo's hard Brexit, it is also about self-interest: look at @StephenDFisher's analysis of the map if you doubt it
mentions 18/

Before you can get PR or other reform you have to make progress under current rules, which means getting over the old tribal refusal to co-operate with other parties

Even before we get to Scotland, the 2005 alliance isn't coming back, still less that of 1945. You need help! 
mentions 19/

The most important lesson of the lot is probably to look outward — thinking about how things look outside your own local community and immediate circle, and not squandering energy on spats within your own tribe 
mentions 20/

While the challenges are daunting, these are fluid times, and things can shift fast. The new Conservative coalition, just as much as the old Labour one, is decidedly fragile

I'll shut up with my "cheer up" piece from yesterday
 

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here but Ive had many discussions with own adult sons about how I've always viewed Labour's biggest mistake,not just under Corbyn but particularly so,was not to form alliances,an anti tory party if you like.

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38 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

No, Brexit is a stupid idea. I’m no longer a Tory either.  Keep up.  

 

Voting Tory is a stupid idea too. I can see why they did it though, they saw parliament as having taken democracy away from them by not respecting the vote, no matter how stupid we think the vote was. We should've just left the fucking EU in the first place.

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5 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I'm not sure if I've mentioned it here but Ive had many discussions with own adult sons about how I've always viewed Labour's biggest mistake,not just under Corbyn but particularly so,was not to form alliances,an anti tory party if you like.

I'm pretty sure that plenty of Lib Dems and Tory rebels are thinking that maybe a month or two of Corbyn as pm getting a referendum sorted out might not have been the worst outcome.

 

On the wider point of what any new Labour leader faces , saw this bit of an article in the papers this morning,

 

Lajoi was among many first-time canvassers organised on WhatsApp who went to Putney, Kensington, Ruislip and Chingford to campaign for Labour. On election night she met a homeless man who said he wasn’t registered but would have voted Conservative if he could. “I am very rarely speechless, but I don’t know how to process that: you’re suffering, you’re homeless, you might not survive the next five years, but what – at least it won’t be a Polish coroner who does your autopsy?”

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43 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Yes,that is unfortunately how it works. What right wing parties do is cut back on public funded education because well educated(or at least educated to a good median level) see Scandanavian countries,are those people most likely to understand the nuances and context of what is actually happening. There was a superb documentary on Netflix not long ago (cannot remember its name) where Noam Chomsky listed the 10 or 12 steps to make ordinary people vote against their own best interests. It was largely about the USA but could equally be applied to many other countries especially the UK.

I left school in the early 1980s and it was very rare that most kids could not at least read or write and have a basic level of numeracy too. Now it seems there are many more that don't have any of these and that is extremely sad as these are people who are either apathetic about politics or very malleable and can be easily controlled by extremists, such as the people who fund and run the tory party. And before you get on your high horse about my use of the word 'extremists' not all extremists have swastika tattoos and skinheads,the very worst wear thousand dollar suits and sit behind desks and think purely in terms of money and self interest and have little interest in human lives outside of their own and their nearest and dearest.

A quick look at the literacy rates show they’ve not changed (99%) for 30 years.  
 

It does show a certain arrogance that you know best and people are too dumb to think for themselves. Maybe the answer not letting them vote at all?  As what would happen if they were educated to the level you deem appropriate and they still didn’t agree with you? 

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13 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

A quick look at the literacy rates show they’ve not changed (99%) for 30 years.  
 

It does show a certain arrogance that you know best and people are too dumb to think for themselves. Maybe the answer not letting them vote at all?  As what would happen if they were educated to the level you deem appropriate and they still didn’t agree with you? 

 

Calling people thick is obviously not going to win them back but surely you can agree that newspapers and TV have a massive impact on the votes of a large number of people who are susceptible to the whatever agenda they want to set?

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1 minute ago, sir roger said:

Maybe we could use the gulags that are empty now that Boris has freed our Jewish friends from Jezza’s reign of terror.

I was looking forward to spending a few years chained up next to Stronts whilst Moof and NV pretended to be tough and shouted at us.  All the time knowing RP would release us as he thought we were aliens.  

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1 minute ago, Rico1304 said:

I was looking forward to spending a few years chained up next to Stronts whilst Moof and NV pretended to be tough and shouted at us.  All the time knowing RP would release us as he thought we were aliens.  

You were earmarked for the Hades/Tooth wing. Sorry rico.

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1 hour ago, Captain Turdseye said:

 

Calling people thick is obviously not going to win them back but surely you can agree that newspapers and TV have a massive impact on the votes of a large number of people who are susceptible to the whatever agenda they want to set?

I think people look at their own lives and make the decision.  You can’t tell them it’s wrong.  You can disagree but you can’t tell them what to do. 
 

loads on here are so out of touch they have to blame something else.  The echo chamber of twitter and only listening to the same people doesn’t reflect the reality.  Noam Chomsky isn’t going to solve this.  Telling people to listen to him won’t work.  

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1 hour ago, Istvan Kuntstain said:

Yet 16.4% have extremely poor literacy skills so thats about 7 million people, we're ranked 17th by the OECD out of 34 countries and 15th for numeracy, so 1 in 5 children left primary school without being able to read and write properly.

About 9% of the population are too dumb to learn how to do it though. 
 

(I may be misremembering the number but think it was a US army study that 9% were too stupid to do the lowest worthwhile task in the army which was window cleaning) 

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