The New Leader of the Labour Party

[Anubis]

28 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Have been reading that report and i’m resigning my membership. The party doesn’t represent me anymore, unfortunately.

 

Time to move on.

Pretty much how I felt reading it. The only thing stopping me at the moment is that our CLP has a lot of good people in it who worked their bollocks off on doorsteps far and wide, and there are still good MPs in the party. That and the idea it would let the pricks get away with it. Like CT I think I’ll wait and see if there is anything that comes of it. If not, like Ian I’ll move on. Which would be sad after voting Labour all my life. 
 

EDIT: But what kills me more than anything is the number of people on low wages I saw on social media - a lot of unemployed, disabled and desperate people, who joined and gave money they could ill afford in exchange for a bit of hope. To know there were people in the party happy to shaft them over for their own ends even with an uphill battle as it was...

[aRdja]

Fucking hell. If that’s not weaponising anti-semitism, then I don’t know what is. The Jewish community are the biggest victims in all of this. 

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

14 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Fucking hell. If that’s not weaponising anti-semitism, then I don’t know what is. The Jewish community are the biggest victims in all of this. 

 

 

I'm not sure that that's the smoking gun it might appear to be though. 

 

Is she saying that Tom (Watson, I presume) actually facilitated a soft decision on KL or is she saying that Karie Murphy has been saying/making an accusation that they've done this?

 

I don't think it's clear enough. If anything, I think it might lean towards the latter. 

[Pureblood]

1 hour ago, Brownie said:

Have been reading that report and i’m resigning my membership. The party doesn’t represent me anymore, unfortunately.

 

Time to move on.

Welcome to the Greens.

[Rotpeter]

3 hours ago, Paulie Dangerously said:

I wonder which political party could really be behind this smearing of labour leaders? 

If the last couple of years are any guide, I'd say Labor.

[Rotpeter]

2 hours ago, Red Phoenix said:

 

Yeah most of the problems are summed up here, you can read the first half to get a good idea of what happened : With Panorama's hatchet job on Labour antisemitism, BBC has become pro-Tory media
 

Virtual +Rep

[Duff Man]

This is a bit of a Rubicon moment for Starmer. If he doesn't, at the very least, revise his pick for General Secretary, and launch most of these people into the sea, he's going to lose half the membership overnight.

[Jairzinho]

10 minutes ago, Duff Man said:

This is a bit of a Rubicon moment for Starmer. If he doesn't, at the very least, revise his pick for General Secretary, and launch most of these people into the sea, he's going to lose half the membership overnight.

Yes, it's going to be tough campaigning with just half a dozen Guardian journalists and John Mcternon going door to door.

[Sugar Ape]

59 minutes ago, aRdja said:

Fucking hell. If that’s not weaponising anti-semitism, then I don’t know what is. The Jewish community are the biggest victims in all of this. 

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Nelly-Torres said:

I'm not sure that that's the smoking gun it might appear to be though. 

 

Is she saying that Tom (Watson, I presume) actually facilitated a soft decision on KL or is she saying that Karie Murphy has been saying/making an accusation that they've done this?

 

I don't think it's clear enough. If anything, I think it might lean towards the latter. 

 

Few thoughts. 
 

Firstly that isn’t what was said and reporting it that way undermines any valid complaints. 
 

Secondly the report seems to have been authored by Harry Hayball who is or was Momentum’s social media guy. So I’d take everything with a pinch of salt as he is hardly unbiased. 
 

Thirdly, I don’t think the uproar over this on Twitter will transfer to the real world. I mean, I’m sure some people will leave but I think talk of half the membership leaving will be well wide of the mark. 

[Pureblood]

1 minute ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

 

 

 

Thirdly, I don’t think the uproar over this on Twitter will transfer to the real world. I mean, I’m sure some people will leave but I think talk of half the membership leaving will be well wide of the mark. 

Completely agree that Twitter has its own political microclimate, which I don't think automatically transposes to the real world. 

[aRdja]

36 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

 

Few thoughts. 
 

Firstly that isn’t what was said and reporting it that way undermines any valid complaints. 
 

Secondly the report seems to have been authored by Harry Hayball who is or was Momentum’s social media guy. So I’d take everything with a pinch of salt as he is hardly unbiased. 
 

Thirdly, I don’t think the uproar over this on Twitter will transfer to the real world. I mean, I’m sure some people will leave but I think talk of half the membership leaving will be well wide of the mark. 

Let’s hope you’re right with your first two paragraphs. I think if the left are disciplined enough they could make something out of this, they could learn from the antisemitism saga and play the long game here. Don’t go all in now, and just keep the attacks small but consistent. This could stick IMO.

[sir roger]

28 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

 

 

Few thoughts. 
 

Firstly that isn’t what was said and reporting it that way undermines any valid complaints. 
 

Secondly the report seems to have been authored by Harry Hayball who is or was Momentum’s social media guy. So I’d take everything with a pinch of salt as he is hardly unbiased. 
 

Thirdly, I don’t think the uproar over this on Twitter will transfer to the real world. I mean, I’m sure some people will leave but I think talk of half the membership leaving will be well wide of the mark. 

Never heard of Harry Hayball , but not heard a single person mentioned actually claim any if it has been fabricated, McNicol just gave it the ' haven't they got better things to do '. Knowing that Oldknow is married to Ashworth sheds possibly more light on his 'accidental ' chat with his Tory mate during the election.

 

I supported Starmer in the recent election having taken at face value his'  fresh start for all parts of the party ' focus, but if he insists on ignoring this and pushing Oldknow for GS , I reckon he will lose up to a third of party members.I know a lot of members are leaving but quite a lot are keeping a watching brief and also keeping one eye on Septembers NEC elections.

[TheHowieLama]

Harry Hayball is a tremendous name

[sir roger]

34 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Completely agree that Twitter has its own political microclimate, which I don't think automatically transposes to the real world. 

May not be a big issue outside the party in the present climate , but I can assure you it will not be just a Twitter storm within party members.

[Pureblood]

1 minute ago, sir roger said:

May not be a big issue outside the party in the present climate , but I can assure you it will not be just a Twitter storm within party members.

Fair enough, I don't really follow it. The internal wranglings of the labour party. Probably the most boring concept ever devised. 

[Sugar Ape]

17 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Never heard of Harry Hayball , but not heard a single person mentioned actually claim any if it has been fabricated, McNicol just gave it the ' haven't they got better things to do '. Knowing that Oldknow is married to Ashworth sheds possibly more light on his 'accidental ' chat with his Tory mate during the election.

 

I supported Starmer in the recent election having taken at face value his'  fresh start for all parts of the party ' focus, but if he insists on ignoring this and pushing Oldknow for GS , I reckon he will lose up to a third of party members.I know a lot of members are leaving but quite a lot are keeping a watching brief and also keeping one eye on Septembers NEC elections.

The Twitter post by Ardja shows that people are lifting things from the report and broadcasting them in an illegitimate way. If anything, those messages would show Karie Murphy in a bad light if they were true. Instead, it’s doctored to make it look like her and Tom Watson conspired to delay the expulsion of Livingstone for political gain. 
 

Aside from that, I’ve no doubt loads of it is true and there were people working there who undermined Corbyn. However, I can’t see a deep dive being done into Murphy, Milne or Formby’s WhatsApp’s and emails.
 

Both sides would have been at it, it’s common knowledge they were at war with each other yet the report is focused in the main on enemies of Corbyn. My opinion is they would both have been as bad as each other and pulling all sorts to gain an advantage. 
 

I disagree with you on how big an issue It will be with party members. Probably big with the circa 20% who voted Richard for deputy and not that big an impact on others. And obviously all that 20% won’t leave, a minority of them will leave, I’d suggest, with a lot of them already considering leaving as they think Starmer is a Blairite or a Tory or whatever. 

[sir roger]

Let's be realistic SA , if there had been any dodgy tweets or messages by Murphy, Milne or Formby we would have heard all about it by now and would not have had to wait for this expose, that's the point really.

 

Agree that doctoring of comments is out of order , there is plenty of horrific stuff to focus on without doing that. 

 

Milne has gone and Murphy will go , so the interesting one will be Formby. Whether she is seen as a Corbyn appointment or not ( my memory is that it was more a Unite push ) I think she has been an excellent GS , and didnt Corbyn have to put up with McNicol for over two years during which he actually took legal action against him to try to keep him off the ballot paper !! So why Starmer should expect Formby to disappear with a pat on the head is beyond me. 'Starmer forces out GS who worked tirelessly during chemotherapy ' would be a golden headline for the msm.

 

With reference to a possible exodus of members , and your comment re Burgon ,there are also a lot of members like me who took Starmer at his word re a fresh start and will be off your pop if he was basically just lying and starts going back to the old centrist regime.His cabinet was not a great start on that score.

[Sugar Ape]

10 minutes ago, sir roger said:

Let's be realistic SA , if there had been any dodgy tweets or messages by Murphy, Milne or Formby we would have heard all about it by now and would not have had to wait for this expose, that's the point really.

 

Agree that doctoring of comments is out of order , there is plenty of horrific stuff to focus on without doing that. 

 

Milne has gone and Murphy will go , so the interesting one will be Formby. Whether she is seen as a Corbyn appointment or not ( my memory is that it was more a Unite push ) I think she has been an excellent GS , and didnt Corbyn have to put up with McNicol for over two years during which he actually took legal action against him to try to keep him off the ballot paper !! So why Starmer should expect Formby to disappear with a pat on the head is beyond me.

Only as realistic as me saying a month ago if there were texts messages by McNicol they would have been leaked by now to damage him. Clearly they will both have been at it, any other conclusion isn’t realistic to me. 
 

As I understand it a general secretary can only be removed by the NEC, if Starmer has the numbers I’d expect him to install his own one, and rightly so in my opinion, though I don’t think it’ll be Oldknow.
 

Corbyn should have been able to get rid of McNicol asap too instead of having to wait for a majority on the NEC. I think every new leader should be able to pick their own general secretary. 
 

Edit: The party machinery should totally align with the leader and they should have the say over all important positions. That way if it goes tits up they carry the can rather than putting the blame elsewhere. 

[Neil G]

3 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

The only thing stopping me at the moment is the fact that I got involved with a really small branch and it’s a nice group of people where I’ve made some friends. My loyalty is to them but even so I’m struggling to justify it. If there’s no definitive action on this (and what can they even do?) then I’m probably out too. If I was ‘only’ paying subs then I’d have jibbed it after reading a lot of that last night. 

 

3 hours ago, Anubis said:

Pretty much how I felt reading it. The only thing stopping me at the moment is that our CLP has a lot of good people in it who worked their bollocks off on doorsteps far and wide, and there are still good MPs in the party. That and the idea it would let the pricks get away with it. Like CT I think I’ll wait and see if there is anything that comes of it. If not, like Ian I’ll move on. Which would be sad after voting Labour all my life. 
 

EDIT: But what kills me more than anything is the number of people on low wages I saw on social media - a lot of unemployed, disabled and desperate people, who joined and gave money they could ill afford in exchange for a bit of hope. To know there were people in the party happy to shaft them over for their own ends even with an uphill battle as it was...

Lads, I’m begging you, stay put whatever happens. People like you quitting is exactly what these cunts want. Every departure of a decent left-winger is a victory for them - don’t give it to them.

 

Even if Starmer doesn’t deal with this now, there will be a reckoning at some point. There will be elections to the NEC and other bodies, votes at conference cast by delegates elected by CLPs, and possibly a leadership election if Labour loses the next election, or maybe before then if Starmer doesn’t go the distance. All of these will be decided by the members, so it’s imperative that the left keep the numbers.

 

Stay involved with your CLP where there are bound to be like-minded people who are just as angry as you are. Or if you really can’t face devoting any of your time to the party for the time being, be a paper member and cast your votes when required. Just don’t let these shitbags get control of the party back, because if they do then it’ll be a choice between them and the Tories running the country for the foreseeable future.

[Neil G]

The above applies to anyone else thinking of quitting, and also to people like Brownie who’ve already quit although I guess you’re probably not for turning.

 

Grit your teeth, dig in and get organised. This opportunity for the left only exists in the first place because people like Corbyn and McDonnell stuck it out when the right were in charge - ask yourself what they’d want you to do.

[Anubis]

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

Yes, it's going to be tough campaigning with just half a dozen Guardian journalists and John Mcternon going door to door.

Won’t anybody think of little Polly Toynbee’s verucas?

[Duff Man]

12 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:

Only as realistic as me saying a month ago if there were texts messages by McNicol they would have been leaked by now to damage him. Clearly they will both have been at it, any other conclusion isn’t realistic to me. 
 

As I understand it a general secretary can only be removed by the NEC, if Starmer has the numbers I’d expect him to install his own one, and rightly so in my opinion, though I don’t think it’ll be Oldknow.
 

Corbyn should have been able to get rid of McNicol asap too instead of having to wait for a majority on the NEC. I think every new leader should be able to pick their own general secretary. 
 

Edit: The party machinery should totally align with the leader and they should have the say over all important positions. That way if it goes tits up they carry the can rather than putting the blame elsewhere. 

Doing the both sides routine, when we only have evidence of one side behaving absolutely terribly, including reinstating someone like Danzcuk, and generally being responsible for an awful lot of the bad press the Labour party has had over the last few years, seems a bit off, to me.

[polymerpunkah]

On 12/04/2020 at 04:53, JohnnyH said:

.... 
 

I’m not British, so your politics, while somewhat important to me in a historical sense, and with the British border on my island from a current sense, is more of an interested bystander view. But the treatment of a fundamentally decent man in Corbyn to ensure he didn’t get in Number 10 is horrific.  Even for the people that hate him and his party and for the ones who are rampant Tories that are delighted he lost, they should be terrified how the press could smear him to this level and control who runs the country.  They can do it to anyone. Disgusting, and utterly terrifying. 

Looking from a little further away, that, broadly, is my take as well.

 

 

 

[Neil G]

The response from Sensible Centrist Twitter has been predictably magnificent.

 

The Labour left are accused of bullying and racism - “These people are a disgrace, there should be a full investigation and they should be kicked out of the party.”

 

The Labour right are accused of bullying and racism - “Look at that, Labour are infighting again during a national emergency, they should just come together and move on.”

[SasaS]

54 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Fair enough, I don't really follow it. The internal wranglings of the labour party. Probably the most boring concept ever devised. 

In the immortal words of NV, I disagree.