The New Leader of the Labour Party

[mattyq]

1 hour ago, Carvalho Diablo said:

The Tory's give Starmer's reshuffle the big thumbs up.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day

[Pureblood]

5 minutes ago, mattyq said:

 

Us as in the Labour Party

He was leader of the Labour Party when the Brexit vote was lost

His manifesto has been fully vindicated by turn of events this year.  

[Barrington Womble]

6 minutes ago, mattyq said:

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day

You've also got to remember he fucking hates Johnson, so despite being a Tory, he probably wouldn't be too upset if Starmer can bring him down. And remember that doesn't mean losing the next election. There will be a period where the actions in the run up to the pandemic will come under scrutiny and perhaps it could see Johnson off in his own party. It seems a million miles off right now, but this time last year I think Theresa May was still trying to get her deal through parliament and was about to turn to the opposition parties for support. 

[aRdja]

He’s got himself a supporter. Nice one.

[Megadrive Man]

22 hours ago, Carvalho Diablo said:

The Tory's give Starmer's reshuffle the big thumbs up.

 

Ah yeah. Remember those 5 years where there was no opposition and Theresa May won that 100 seat majority at the 2017 election, then nailed Brexit and didn't get the biggest government defeat in over 100 years. 

[Megadrive Man]

20 hours ago, Barry Wom said:

You've also got to remember he fucking hates Johnson, so despite being a Tory, he probably wouldn't be too upset if Starmer can bring him down. And remember that doesn't mean losing the next election. There will be a period where the actions in the run up to the pandemic will come under scrutiny and perhaps it could see Johnson off in his own party. It seems a million miles off right now, but this time last year I think Theresa May was still trying to get her deal through parliament and was about to turn to the opposition parties for support. 

It's seems crazy that that was only 12 months ago. Feels like a lifetime ago now!

 

I can see many Tory's desperately trying to get what they consider as a moderate in charge, but Johnson has the support of the Brexit voting working class. I can't see them getting rid of him unless he croaks it. 

[Jairzinho]

There are many things you can criticise Corbyn for. Position on Brexit just isn't one of them. If he'd gone full remain he'd have probably lost even more seats in the North. 

 

Brexit absolutely fucked Labour because their support base was/is completely divided. It was always going to be the case.

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

Starmer has been branded as being like Blair. That might be unfair. Only time will tell. 

 

But, he's definitely been to the same public speaking classes as Blair. He does the same slow, speaking in groups of 3 or 4 words then a tiny pause thing, plus he uses his hands when speaking too. Blair used to do this. But, he was a bit more exciting when doing it than Starmer is. With Starmer, it all looks a bit artificial and forced. And very dull. 

[Neil G]

4 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

There are many things you can criticise Corbyn for. Position on Brexit just isn't one of them. If he'd gone full remain he'd have probably lost even more seats in the North. 

 

Brexit absolutely fucked Labour because their support base was/is completely divided. It was always going to be the case.

Disagree. If he’d come out unequivocally for full membership of the single market and customs union (soft Brexit / Norway plus) as soon as the negotiations started, he’d have kept hold of a lot of the Remain voters who ended up abandoning him, or threatened to abandon him if he hadn’t offered a second referendum, while respecting the result of the first and keeping lots of Leavers onside. This would have been a coherent and clearly articulated position which could have kept his GE2017 coalition together, rather than the fudge we saw for the majority of the negotiation period which didn’t please anyone.

 

Going into GE2019 he had no choice but to take the position he did, but by then he’d boxed himself in through previous miscalculations.

[Jairzinho]

8 minutes ago, Neil G said:

Disagree. If he’d come out unequivocally for full membership of the single market and customs union (soft Brexit / Norway plus) as soon as the negotiations started, he’d have kept hold of a lot of the Remain voters who ended up abandoning him, or threatened to abandon him if he hadn’t offered a second referendum, while respecting the result of the first and keeping lots of Leavers onside. This would have been a coherent and clearly articulated position which could have kept his GE2017 coalition together, rather than the fudge we saw for the majority of the negotiation period which didn’t please anyone.

 

Going into GE2019 he had no choice but to take the position he did, but by then he’d boxed himself in through previous miscalculations.

I don't think it would have made much difference at all. Leave voters were being told every day that even the Tories version of Brexit wasn't a real one. Labour were seen as being in favour of a soft Brexit/not really Brexit anyway. 

 

Maybe they could have hung on to another 10/15 seats, but I actually doubt it. Either way, they couldn't win the election.

[mattyq]

4 hours ago, Jairzinho said:

There are many things you can criticise Corbyn for. Position on Brexit just isn't one of them. If he'd gone full remain he'd have probably lost even more seats in the North. 

 

Brexit absolutely fucked Labour because their support base was/is completely divided. It was always going to be the case.

I don't blame Corbyn for Brexit; that's firmly on Cameron/Johnston/Gove/Farage etc but what I do blame him for was never coming up with a convincing Labour/Socialist case for staying in the EU. 

He essentially waved goodbye to all the traditional Labour voters who voted Brexit because he didn't offer up a convincing counter narrative to the Farage crap.

Like Ed Milliband did with the Economic crash of 2008 when he allowed the Tories to set the narrative 'there's no money left'

Just a stupid strategy

[Jairzinho]

1 minute ago, mattyq said:

I don't blame Corbyn for Brexit; that's firmly on Cameron/Johnston/Gove/Farage etc but what I do blame him for was never coming up with a convincing Labour/Socialist case for staying in the EU. 

He essentially waved goodbye to all the traditional Labour voters who voted Brexit because he didn't offer up a convincing counter narrative to the Farage crap.

Like Ed Milliband did with the Economic crash of 2008 when he allowed the Tories to set the narrative 'there's no money left'

Just a stupid strategy

They were going whatever he said. This is my point. 

 

This had been about 30 years in the making. Yes, maybe he could have offered up some socialist vision of the EU, but the amount of people it would have convinced wouldn't have touched the sides when it came to the election.

 

I actually think the only way he could have won considerably more seats in 2019 was by offering up a socialist case for leaving. 

[mattyq]

1 minute ago, Jairzinho said:

They were going whatever he said. This is my point. 

 

This had been about 30 years in the making. Yes, maybe he could have offered up some socialist vision of the EU, but the amount of people it would have convinced wouldn't have touched the sides when it came to the election.

 

I actually think the only way he could have won considerably more seats in 2019 was by offering up a socialist case for leaving. 

That would have been very difficult with the vast majority of the Party being heavily Remain

I agree he was in an invidious position and was probably always onto a loser but I agree with Neil in that he bought that on himself by getting the strategy wrong in 2018

[Jairzinho]

8 minutes ago, mattyq said:

That would have been very difficult with the vast majority of the Party being heavily Remain

I agree he was in an invidious position and was probably always onto a loser but I agree with Neil in that he bought that on himself by getting the strategy wrong in 2018

Most of the party didn't like him anyway. Might have been quite a good way for him to clear out some of the biggest cunts in the party. 

 

I just think there was fuck all he or anyone else in the party could have done between 2017 and 2019. Brexit absolutely fucked the party and the country.

 

For example, some random centrist stiff in charge, in my opinion, would have also had a shit result. I don't know, maybe more like 35% than 30%. But we could have seen a situation where the left was now taking over from the centre in the Labour Party. 

 

I just think it's impossible to see the performance of Corbyn or the party in isolation. For example, people are saying it's time to ditch left wing policies because of the result. I think analysis of elections are usually shite because of a small sample size and a multitude of factors. With Brexit as well, it's impossible in my opinion.

 

But we'll get something more centrist for the next few years. It'll probably fail as well, because Murdoch won't back it (doesn't need to now). And then there will some more soul searching.

 

The media and the voting system make British democracy utter shit. 

[Gooch]

On 10/04/2020 at 14:37, TK421 said:

His manifesto has been fully vindicated by turn of events this year.  

How? The current policies are in response to a once in a generation event that has shattered the economy overnight. Why does that vindicate his manifesto for governing in what he would have perceived to be at the time ‘normal times’. If anything it shows the opposite, that they are only relevant for times of crisis.

[A Red]

Lets remember Corbyn was a leaver. Yeah, I know, I shouldnt mention that.

[Section_31]

I don't know if Starmer will be good or not, just as I never knew of Corbyn would be, all we can ever do with these things is wait and see. 

 

I'm annoyed by a lot of the brazen disinformation out there though. Keep seeing the likes of the Morning Star refer to him as 'millionaire knight of the realm' Keir Starmer. If he owns a house in London he probably is a millionaire, as is Corbyn, but unlike Cobyn didn't go to private school (not that that bothers me, but glass houses and all that). 

 

Was the same when they were running Long Bailey's campaign. The 'Salford lass' who is actually a lawyer from Frodsham whose company worked on the PFI selloff of hospital estates. Her Wikipedia page was clearly changed by her team during the campaign too and was proper cringeworthy. 'It was while working for a pawnbroker that she became aware of the issues faced by the poor'. Aware of the issues? One could say making money out of them if one were so inclined. Again, I don't care either way how someone made their living or how they were schooled, but if you're gonna try and 'out working class' someone, don't throw stones from the Palm House. 

 

Alan Johnson hit the nail on the head recently when he said the problem with the 'hard left' as he called them was that they think everything should be grassroots-led, and that for me was the fatal flaw in the Corbyn project. 

 

What tended to happen at constituency labour parties is that they'd get bogged down in infighting and internal politics. There were tried and trusted methods for dominating them (if you got newbies there and didn't like the looks of them, you'd make the meeting as dull as possible so they'd never come back). Meanwhile, you'd stack all the top tier positions with your mates and lackeys. 

 

I think Corbyn thought that when he let loose the masses we'd all join these CLPs and lead a people's revolution, but what tended to happen was that they'd just become talking shops dominated by the same old people. There was no leadership from above, no strategy, no plan. 

 

When election time came it was every man for himself, MPs trying to cobble together some messaging, often being actively undermined by their local CLP, some members in which would often have their own agendas. It was lambs to the slaughter in the face of the simple and disciplined messaging of the Tories. 

 

I think Starmer can unite the party, he's won the backing of David Miliband AND Ken Livingstone. You can't get any more polar than that.  

 

Labour needs to be a broad church again, it needs to welcome everyone who - essentially - doesn't want to vote Tory. Whether they're left of Karl Marx, or a tree-hugging vegan, or simply just 2.4 kids who are sick of the status quo.  

 

 

 

 

[Pureblood]

15 minutes ago, Gooch said:

How? The current policies are in response to a once in a generation event that has shattered the economy overnight. Why does that vindicate his manifesto for governing in what he would have perceived to be at the time ‘normal times’. If anything it shows the opposite, that they are only relevant for times of crisis.

If there was consistent investment in the state prior to coronavirus we would have been far better prepared for it. 

 

The most obvious example is the NHS. The NHS now faces a shortage of basic equipment, leading to staff absences and in the worst cases death. 

 

Austerity has more than played its part in where we find ourselves now.  To suggest otherwise is myopic in the extreme.

 

 

[Jack the Sipper]

58 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

They were going whatever he said. This is my point. 

 

This had been about 30 years in the making. Yes, maybe he could have offered up some socialist vision of the EU, but the amount of people it would have convinced wouldn't have touched the sides when it came to the election.

 

I actually think the only way he could have won considerably more seats in 2019 was by offering up a socialist case for leaving. 

Given Corbyn was a Eurosceptic right up the point he became Labour Leader he would've certainly been on more comfortable ground than arguing for a position he didn't actually believe in. I've no doubt that, had he still been a backbencher in 2016, he would've been sharing platforms with Kate Hoey, Farage and the like.

 

It's sods law, really, that at a time when the political and national debate was becoming consumed by Brexit, Labour (a strong pro-EU party) found itself electing one of the handful of Eurosceptics they had in Parliament.

[Red Phoenix]

I think the Fabian Society could be one of the biggest obstacles to seeing any real change take place, and Starmer along with 14 others I think from the cabinet are members, including Rayner as well. I'm not saying they're part of some shadowy conspiracy but they're probably more aimed at keeping capitalism ticking along as smoothly as possible instead of implementing or even thinking about any real socialist changes.

 

And I think that seems like a pretty shit way of going about things considering what we're going through at the moment.

[Stickman]

I wonder why the party have suddenly decided not to send this report to the EHRC ?

Labour antisemitism investigation will not be sent to equality commission

A report found factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes".

An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers.The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue.The investigation, which was completed in the last month of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, claims to have found "no evidence" of antisemitism complaints being treated differently to other forms of complaint, or of current or former staff being "motivated by antisemitic intent".Instead, the report concludes there was a lack of "robust processes, systems, training, education and effective line management" and found "abundant evidence of a hyper-factional atmosphere prevailing in Party HQ" towards Jeremy Corbyn which "affected the expeditious and resolute handling of disciplinary complaints".As well as 10,000 separate emails, the dossier uncovers thousands of private WhatsApp communications between former senior party officials and singles out for criticism some who gave whistleblower evidence to last year's highly-critical BBC Panorama investigation on antisemitism within Labour.These include the former General Secretary Lord McNicol and the former acting head of the governance and legal unit, Sam Matthews.Those involved in compiling the huge dossier insist it was intended to provide additional context to the equalities watchdog and supplement the party's main submissions to the investigation into institutional antisemitic racism.

https://news.sky.com/story/labour-antisemitism-investigation-will-not-be-sent-to-equality-commission-11972071

 

 

 

 

[Nelly-Szoboszlai]

 

[aRdja]

Corbyn’s biggest mistake was to humour those 2nd referendum supporting fuckwits, thus abandoning his democratic principles. The country voted to leave the EU in the referendum and also confirmed by the european election where a brand new party with no manifesto, other than “clean-break Brexit” walked it. 

[Strontium]

Oh good, it's the "30% is a landslide" canard again, we haven't had that for at least 5 minutes.

[aRdja]

11 minutes ago, Strontium Dog™ said:

Oh good, it's the "30% is a landslide" canard again, we haven't had that for at least 5 minutes.

Despite voting for remain, I’m a democrat i.e. I respect the result of the votes, unlike the 2nd referendum supporting twats. I didn’t even need the European election to confirm, but it was really eye opening.