Jump to content
  • Sign up for free and receive a month's subscription

    You are viewing this page as a guest. That means you are either a member who has not logged in, or you have not yet registered with us. Signing up for an account only takes a minute and it means you will no longer see this annoying box! It will also allow you to get involved with our friendly(ish!) community and take part in the discussions on our forums. And because we're feeling generous, if you sign up for a free account we will give you a month's free trial access to our subscriber only content with no obligation to commit. Register an account and then send a private message to @dave u and he'll hook you up with a subscription.

The New Leader of the Labour Party


Numero Veinticinco
 Share

Recommended Posts

16 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

Agreed, and I felt it was fucking stupid of Labour to be saying "this is the most radical manifesto ever" etc. That isn't the fucking sell. The sell was, as you allude to, this is bog standard centre left economics. The sort that can be seen all over Europe. There wasn't a great deal of "seizing the means of production" and nationalising bakeries. It was just, maybe make sure nurses don't have to go to food banks, try not to have millions of kids in poverty, etc. The language used allowed the dim to equate it with communism.

 

It should have been made quite clear that the current economic choices being made are considerably more radical than those than Labour were putting forward.

I agree with this; the party has been really poor with it's use of language in recent years for me. This may grate with some but I think they need to drop stuff like "comrade" because it just equates to Russian communism in the eyes of the general public. The right wing media are doing enough to scare the electorate without Labour exacerbating it.

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, A Red said:

 

It is clear that the electorate dont want full on socialist policies 

 

 

No it isn't; quite the opposite.

 

The (really limited and moderate) programme of decent public services funded by tax increases for the very richest which was at the heart of Labour’s manifesto consists of policies which are supported even by Tories. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a clear leftist tendency in Corbyn's Labour, voters have identified it, most of you identify it (it's why some of you paid the membership so you can vote for it), most of you are worried that the new leadership may drop it and move to the center. How is that the overall conclusion that they are not socialist and after a crushing defeat, that people want them, but they are brainwashed into not wanting them and interpreting them as radical.

It hard to follow that logic sometimes.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, SasaS said:

There is a clear leftist tendency in Corbyn's Labour, voters have identified it, most of you identify it (it's why some of you paid the membership so you can vote for it), most of you are worried that the new leadership may drop it and move to the center. How is that the overall conclusion that they are not socialist and after a crushing defeat, that people want them, but they are brainwashed into not wanting them and interpreting them as radical.

It hard to follow that logic sometimes.

In our defence, you have just made it up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Do you think when someone uses a phrase like "the kindest, most generous man" they mean it literally  (and not just a way of adding emphasis to "very kind, very generous")?

 

If so, you are the stupidest person.

I think if you build someone up, constantly use language like that and deny he’s capable of wrongdoing most people eventually say ‘Fuck off’ 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, SasaS said:

There is a clear leftist tendency in Corbyn's Labour, voters have identified it, most of you identify it (it's why some of you paid the membership so you can vote for it), most of you are worried that the new leadership may drop it and move to the center. How is that the overall conclusion that they are not socialist and after a crushing defeat, that people want them, but they are brainwashed into not wanting them and interpreting them as radical.

It hard to follow that logic sometimes.

There is a clear, distinguishable difference between Socialism and Communism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Jairzinho said:

Agreed, and I felt it was fucking stupid of Labour to be saying "this is the most radical manifesto ever" etc. That isn't the fucking sell. The sell was, as you allude to, this is bog standard centre left economics. The sort that can be seen all over Europe. There wasn't a great deal of "seizing the means of production" and nationalising bakeries. It was just, maybe make sure nurses don't have to go to food banks, try not to have millions of kids in poverty, etc. The language used allowed the dim to equate it with communism.

 

It should have been made quite clear that the current economic choices being made are considerably more radical than those than Labour were putting forward.

FUCK GREGGS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Jairzinho said:

In our defence, you have just made it up.

Which part was made up?

 

Just now, Brownie said:

There is a clear, distinguishable difference between Socialism and Communism.

 

Yes, indeed there is. How is this relevant though?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

See, call anyone else whatever you want. In any thread people are called all sorts.  Insult the leader and...

You didn't insult Corbyn. You insulted Labour Party members by pretending we look to him as the Messiah. If you make shit up to insult people, those people are likely to think you're a  cunt.

 

5 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

I think if you build someone up, constantly use language like that and deny he’s capable of wrongdoing most people eventually say ‘Fuck off’ 

Literally nobody denies Corbyn is capable of wrongdoing. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Brownie said:

There is a clear, distinguishable difference between Socialism and Communism.

 

I think that line has become a little blurrier since the Labour Party elected someone who contributed regularly to communist periodicals and who hired communists into senior staff roles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As long as the new Labour leader doesn't condemn Israel for murdering innocent people or threaten the super-rich with a slightly higher tax rate that they won't even notice then they will get a fair and honest shot at the big job in 5 years or so. 

 

Play the game, don't question morality. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't really get this 'how is Starmer going to win back the leave voting North' stuff. Well, if the implication is that he's a Southerner posho, then the answer is that they voted for Boris Johnson. If it's that he's remain, is the suggestion that Corbyn should be followed by a leave campaigner? 

 

As for somebody who mentioned about selling off the NHS should he win... not sure what that's even in consideration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Labour policies are (mostly) popular on their own. Collectively, as a manifesto, it’s much less certain if they are popular as people may not agree they are affordable or necessary. How much of a priority they are for people plays a big part if they’re important at all. I mean, I’d like free internet and would be in favour of it if asked for a poll but it’s so far down my list of priorities that it would never be a factor in how I vote. Also stuff like abolishing private schools is just an unneeded distraction which doesn’t appeal to anyone apart from a small section of already committed Labour voters and fuels right wing attacks that Labour wants to punish successful people. 
 

One of the most potent smears the Tories and right wing press have got is making out that Labour bankrupt the county and any future Labour governments would do the same. They still dine out on the infamous “there is no money left’ note. 
 

Just my opinion but the best way around this, and it might not be popular with some,  is to match or offer just a little better than what the Tories offer. They offer the NHS an extra £20 billion a year, we offer an extra £21.5 billion a year. They pledge to recruit 20,000 extra nurses, we pledge to recruit 23,000 extra. It would cut most Tory attacks off at the knees if we were broadly committing to spending just a little more than what they are. 
 

And then when we get power we can up everything in future budgets. We can say that, actually, the NHS is in a much worse state than we thought due to Tory underfunding and we’re giving an extra £5, or £8 or £10 billion or whatever we want. We can hire many more nurses, police, civil servants than we said. We can’t do any of this if we aren’t in power in the first place. 
 

Similarly with taking back public ownership, there is absolutely no need to go mental and pledge to take back Railways, water, electricity, gas, Royal Mail and also broadband. Again, it just fuels the belief Labour will bankrupt the country or take it back to the 70s or whatever else they say. Just stick to the railways would be my preference, get in and get that done and running better than it is now and put yourself in a good position to win a subsequent election when you can expand taking other utilities into public ownership. We’ve got to be smart about this. 

 

As for someone like Starmer moving significantly to the right or whatever people are worried about, I don’t think anyone is going to be able to do that to any meaningful degree as the NEC and conference delegates, the makeup of a majority of CLPs etc... won’t allow it. The way the party membership is now I just can’t see it happening. 
 

And finally, totally agree with Brownie on language used. I cringe every time someone says ‘comrade’. Whenever I’m in a union meeting and it gets said it’s so off putting. 
 

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I don't really get this 'how is Starmer going to win back the leave voting North' stuff. Well, if the implication is that he's a Southerner posho, then the answer is that they voted for Boris Johnson. If it's that he's remain, is the suggestion that Corbyn should be followed by a leave campaigner? 

 

As for somebody who mentioned about selling off the NHS should he win... not sure what that's even in consideration.

 

He's a southern posho that has had an image created, courtesy in no small part down to the BBC, of a loveable rogue. 

 

See Nigel Cuntface for further evidence. 

 

Starmer will neither attempt to receive, want, or get, the same treatment from the press. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Numero Veinticinco said:

I don't really get this 'how is Starmer going to win back the leave voting North' stuff. Well, if the implication is that he's a Southerner posho, then the answer is that they voted for Boris Johnson. If it's that he's remain, is the suggestion that Corbyn should be followed by a leave campaigner? 

 

As for somebody who mentioned about selling off the NHS should he win... not sure what that's even in consideration.


Exactly what I said earlier mate. They’ve just voted for Boris Johnson so why is a Northerner needed to counteract that? Makes no sense to me. And there is a distinct lack of talent in the party as it is, trying to limit it to leave voting MPs would leave a pool of about ten MPs who are all abysmal. 
 

Saying that, if people do want that then a Starmer/Rayner leader/deputy situation would appear to tick a lot of boxes.

  • Upvote 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Jairzinho said:

 

He's a southern posho that has had an image created, courtesy in no small part down to the BBC, of a loveable rogue. 

 

See Nigel Cuntface for further evidence. 

 

Starmer will neither attempt to receive, want, or get, the same treatment from the press. 

Will a Northern remainer though?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

No it isn't; quite the opposite.

 

The (really limited and moderate) programme of decent public services funded by tax increases for the very richest which was at the heart of Labour’s manifesto consists of policies which are supported even by Tories. 

Yes, the funding of public services by increasing taxes for the richest was popular. Clause 4 type nationalising, on the other hand, I dont believe, was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, A Red said:

Yes, the funding of public services by increasing taxes for the richest was popular. Clause 4 type nationalising, on the other hand, I dont believe, was.

Renationalisation of utilities and rail were policies that even Tory voters could support. Wholesale British Leyland-style nationalisation of industries was never on offer. (Like I say, it was a moderate manifesto.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Teasmaid said:

So just say Starmer wins the leadership contest, what will make him appeal to a majority Brexit-supporting electorate? Even politically disengaged voters will have him pegged as an enemy Remainer. But even in the hypothetical situation where we win a GE with Starmer as leader - which policies would you choose to keep, and which would you prefer to see more ‘centrist’? Would you all be happy to continue to sell off bits of the NHS while running down the rest? Would you prefer to keep taxes on businesses as low as possible while subsidising them paying their staff slave wages through tax credits?

 

It seems like some Labour supporters want to win at any price, without thinking for a second about what we actually stand for. If there has to be a party in government inflicting misery on the poor and making the rich even richer, I’d rather leave it to the Tories than do it ourselves.

 

Not a single person who abstained on the welfare bill is fit to called a Labour leader.

The next election won't be about brexit though will it? We'll be out by then for good or bad and it could well be the economy will have been hit so much, the country will be queuing up for a party that might try to strike a closer trade deal with Europe. 

4 hours ago, Sugar Ape said:


I think one of the biggest mistakes we could make is electing someone as leader just because they appeal to a small, specific, section of the electorate. We need to elect the person with the broadest appeal, electing someone just because they’re a woman or a leaver or Northern would be a massive error. 
 

No use winning some leave voters back if we lose more remain. We need to keep the voters we have and then start picking off some Tory, SNP and Lib Dem voters. No easy task whoever is the leader, though I do think it would be a good start if people stop telling potential Labour voters to fuck off and support the Tories. 

For me the starting point absolutely has to be "can this person win a GE". I personally don't see RLB being that person, she doesn't come across as either smart enough or likable enough. I was disappointed with labour's position on Brexit from the referendum onwards and there's no doubt starmer was a part of that, even if it was he couldn't win over Corbyn and McDonnell to his way of thinking. That in itself is a worry for me with him, whoever takes the party now needs to take people with him regardless of if they're from the right or left of the party. Once they've got the party pulling in the same direction, they can start to think about eating in to the vote of the other parties. I actually don't see any of them as ideal at the moment. 

  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Renationalisation of utilities and rail were policies that even Tory voters could support. Wholesale British Leyland-style nationalisation of industries was never on offer. (Like I say, it was a moderate manifesto.)

They didnt though. If you think the manifesto was fine and the twatting the party got was just down to other reasons, I think you are deluding yourself. I hope Labour isnt going to be going down the, its a failure to deliver the message rather than blaming the message itself, route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...