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The New Leader of the Labour Party


Numero Veinticinco
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On 31/12/2019 at 17:41, moof said:

12 is a generous estimate. I’ll not say anymore in case we have a daily mail/guido fawkes informant (not looking at anyone in particular, a red) in our midsts and it becomes a national scandal. 
 

Anyway, back to the point. Yes I’m calling him a prick. A baldy prick at that. But seriously, if he has a reasonable answer for the misogyny/groping/troubling-comments-on-the-me-too-mvmt then I’ll gladly listen to them. 
 

Honestly I can’t think of one decent candidate. Keirsy is probably among the best but I have some serious doubts about him, particularly abstaining on the welfare bill, his “people’s vote” bullshit, his resignation and role in the PLP coup and his career as sir prosecutor. Actually, given that stuff maybe clivesy is a better bet. 
 

 

tldr: fuck knows, burn it all down

I agree. Clive Lewis is a fucking wanker. I've got as much chance of becoming prime minister as him.

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That Phil Woodford isn't an NHS director I don't think, that's another Phil Woodford who's here.

 

The guy Rico pasted a tweet of works for Colourful Radio according to his twitter profile, that's when he's not ranting about Corbyn and the "hard left" anyway, this is him on his blog from February :

 

Quote
The very emergence of TIG is the single best thing to happen to British politics in some years.


The breakaway faction offers a potential choice to voters that goes beyond hard-left vision of Jeremy Corbyn and the laissez-faire madness championed by the Tories.

It exposes the vacuous claim of the far left that ‘centrism’ is now dead and has no natural constituency.

 

http://philwoodfordsseachange.blogspot.com/2019/02/tig-has-already-bitten-corbyn-badly-now.html

 

Not the most accurate of blog posts.

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5 minutes ago, Red Phoenix said:

That Phil Woodford isn't an NHS director I don't think, that's another Phil Woodford who's here.

 

The guy Rico pasted a tweet of works for Colourful Radio according to his twitter profile, that's when he's not ranting about Corbyn and the "hard left" anyway, this is him on his blog from February :

 

 

http://philwoodfordsseachange.blogspot.com/2019/02/tig-has-already-bitten-corbyn-badly-now.html

 

Not the most accurate of blog posts.

Cheers RP , didn't want to call the other guy because of his JFT96 motif , but your post clears me to call the real guy an absolute twat. Repped.

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So, if I understand the media correctly...

 

- Labour lost because the leadership weren't trusted or considered relatable by working class, Brexit-supporting communities in the Midlands and the north of England;

 

- Sir Keir Starmer is the best person to lead Labour.

 

Anyone else seeing a problem with this?

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13 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

So, if I understand the media correctly...

 

- Labour lost because the leadership weren't trusted or considered relatable by working class, Brexit-supporting communities in the Midlands and the north of England;

 

- Sir Keir Starmer is the best person to lead Labour.

 

Anyone else seeing a problem with this?


Not really, no. All polling shows that Corbyn was the main problem even over Brexit by such a large margin that if the polling was out by a few percentage points, he’d still be the main problem.
 

Most MPs and campaigners in these areas also say the same with Corbyn being the main issue on the doorstep. 

 

The working class voters that were lost that you are talking about, that we need to win back, voted for Boris Johnson so they clearly don’t have a problem voting for someone posh or a southerner or part of the ‘establishment’.

 

If you are saying Starmer shouldn’t be leader because he’s a remainer then you are ruling out 90% of the MPs in the Labour Party and also going against the membership which is overwhelmingly remain. 

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8 minutes ago, Sugar Ape said:


Not really, no. All polling shows that Corbyn was the main problem even over Brexit by such a large margin that if the polling was out by a few percentage points, he’d still be the main problem.
 

Most MPs and campaigners in these areas also say the same with Corbyn being the main issue on the doorstep. 

 

The working class voters that were lost that you are talking about, that we need to win back, voted for Boris Johnson so they clearly don’t have a problem voting for someone posh or a southerner or part of the ‘establishment’.

 

If you are saying Starmer shouldn’t be leader because he’s a remainer then you are ruling out 90% of the MPs in the Labour Party and also going against the membership which is overwhelmingly remain. 

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't: just that Starmer is everything we're told that working class Brexit voters reject (in much the same way that the real Corbyn  - not the thing portrayed by the media - is actually everything voters usually say they want from politicians: honest and more interested in listening to people and helping them than in lining his own pockets).

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Time and time again Labour are told that JC was toxic on the doorstep.  But it’s impossible to accept as he was built up to be bigger than Jesus. There’s an Alexi Sayle video where (paraphrasing) he describes JC as the kindest, most gentle man ever.  Really? It’s like calling someone a Nazi, once you go that far there’s no where else to go so it’s either double down or admit he may not be absolutely perfect.  
 

There’s also the Lavery video where he gets destroyed by Cameron after asking a question about a health adviser who turns out to have been employed by Labour.  Oh, and his football hooligan conviction. 

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4 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't: just that Starmer is everything we're told that working class Brexit voters reject (in much the same way that the real Corbyn  - not the thing portrayed by the media - is actually everything voters usually say they want from politicians: honest and more interested in listening to people and helping them than in lining his own pockets).


I think one of the biggest mistakes we could make is electing someone as leader just because they appeal to a small, specific, section of the electorate. We need to elect the person with the broadest appeal, electing someone just because they’re a woman or a leaver or Northern would be a massive error. 
 

No use winning some leave voters back if we lose more remain. We need to keep the voters we have and then start picking off some Tory, SNP and Lib Dem voters. No easy task whoever is the leader, though I do think it would be a good start if people stop telling potential Labour voters to fuck off and support the Tories. 

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27 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I'm not saying he should or shouldn't: just that Starmer is everything we're told that working class Brexit voters reject (in much the same way that the real Corbyn  - not the thing portrayed by the media - is actually everything voters usually say they want from politicians: honest and more interested in listening to people and helping them than in lining his own pockets).

The problem is that they don't share your opinion Corbyn is such a man, and Johnson isn't. There is also the issue of people seeing Corbyn as an unsuitable leader for the country, unpatriotic and a security risk. His lack of (some) political instincts didn't help (Skrpal case, avoiding apology on O'Neill's show). Starmer may not have some of that baggage. 

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So just say Starmer wins the leadership contest, what will make him appeal to a majority Brexit-supporting electorate? Even politically disengaged voters will have him pegged as an enemy Remainer. But even in the hypothetical situation where we win a GE with Starmer as leader - which policies would you choose to keep, and which would you prefer to see more ‘centrist’? Would you all be happy to continue to sell off bits of the NHS while running down the rest? Would you prefer to keep taxes on businesses as low as possible while subsidising them paying their staff slave wages through tax credits?

 

It seems like some Labour supporters want to win at any price, without thinking for a second about what we actually stand for. If there has to be a party in government inflicting misery on the poor and making the rich even richer, I’d rather leave it to the Tories than do it ourselves.

 

Not a single person who abstained on the welfare bill is fit to called a Labour leader.

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The next election will not be about Brexit, the Labour leader in 5 years time could have been a leaver or a remainer, it doesnt matter, it will have gone.

 

It is clear that the electorate dont want full on socialist policies or a leader that isnt seen to be patriotic

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

Time and time again Labour are told that JC was toxic on the doorstep.  But it’s impossible to accept as he was built up to be bigger than Jesus. There’s an Alexi Sayle video where (paraphrasing) he describes JC as the kindest, most gentle man ever.  Really? It’s like calling someone a Nazi, once you go that far there’s no where else to go so it’s either double down or admit he may not be absolutely perfect.  
 

There’s also the Lavery video where he gets destroyed by Cameron after asking a question about a health adviser who turns out to have been employed by Labour.  Oh, and his football hooligan conviction. 

If you have opinions on the leadership election that's great , but shit like this suggests you are just being a cunt.

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Guest Pistonbroke
21 minutes ago, A Red said:

The next election will not be about Brexit, the Labour leader in 5 years time could have been a leaver or a remainer, it doesnt matter, it will have gone.

 

It is clear that the electorate dont want full on socialist policies or a leader that isnt seen to be patriotic

 

 

 

It will be though. It will be one side of the coin using any success to win an election, or the other side using the aftermath. Brexit will pretty much take up the whole of this new Decade in one way or another.  

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I can see where AoT & Liz are coming from , but I can't see any realistic Leftist candidate at present. RLB seems a really poor performer who could kill the Labour left off completely if she bombs as leader and Lavery is an old-style bruiser (literally ) and his baggage makes Corbyn look squeaky clean. I like Angela Rayner , but she obviously doesn't feel confident that she can be leader or he wouldn't be trying to smooth RLB's path to it.

 

It may come down to a gut-feel , but I think a Starmer / Rayner ticket may be the best available option at present. I think Starmer is not close to Corbyn in politics but nowhere near as reactionary as the right-wing wreckers like Phillips and Cooper , and with Rayner as deputy with the tacit support of the more leftist mp's and main officials he will be constrained in how far he can backtrack on policy ( hopefully he wont want to anyway , although they need streamlining a bit )

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I don't know why you say that, unlike most on this forum i warned that the leave vote is more entrenched in working class areas than most realise and that  has proven to be the case  

 

Corbyn had imo the right tactic in keeping his cards close to his chest, respect the put vote and wait for the tories to fuck it all up, which they will.  The right wingers in the labour party wanted a pro remain stance (agreed by many on hete) and it proved to be disastrous.

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1 hour ago, Rico1304 said:

Time and time again Labour are told that JC was toxic on the doorstep.  But it’s impossible to accept as he was built up to be bigger than Jesus. There’s an Alexi Sayle video where (paraphrasing) he describes JC as the kindest, most gentle man ever.  Really? It’s like calling someone a Nazi, once you go that far there’s no where else to go so it’s either double down or admit he may not be absolutely perfect.  

Do you think when someone uses a phrase like "the kindest, most generous man" they mean it literally  (and not just a way of adding emphasis to "very kind, very generous")?

 

If so, you are the stupidest person.

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The ideal situation would be for us to have a PR voting system and for the party to split. Starmer is clearly more centrist than what many of us would like, if we had Labour with him and then a more actual left wing party it'd be good to have them in a coalition in the future. Neither party would get exactly what they want and none of us would be perfectly happy, but it'd be better than this shit and it'd at least reflect what voters want more.

 

Even if Labour win in the near future and even if it loses them the type of power they want shortly after, we have to change this fucking voting system. Anyone who leads the party next and that doesn't push for it to be changed deserves all the stick they get for it.

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35 minutes ago, A Red said:

The next election will not be about Brexit, the Labour leader in 5 years time could have been a leaver or a remainer, it doesnt matter, it will have gone.

 

It is clear that the electorate dont want full on socialist policies or a leader that isnt seen to be patriotic

 

 

All of the above is correct bar for the "don't want socialist policies' bit. 

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People do want socialist policies, they just don’t realise that those policies are socialist. They’ve been falsely brainwashed that socialism is all gulags and three-day-weeks. Our policies were supported by a huge majority of the electorate in polls were they weren’t advertised as Labour policies. That is the most frustrating thing of all for me. To say we need to become more centrist is ludicrous. We just need to be seen as more centrist (i.e. for people to realise that our policies aren’t far-left, hardcore ideas, but perfectly mainstream policies that are working well in many other countries).

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10 minutes ago, Teasmaid said:

People do want socialist policies, they just don’t realise that those policies are socialist. They’ve been falsely brainwashed that socialism is all gulags and three-day-weeks. Our policies were supported by a huge majority of the electorate in polls were they weren’t advertised as Labour policies. That is the most frustrating thing of all for me. To say we need to become more centrist is ludicrous. We just need to be seen as more centrist (i.e. for people to realise that our policies aren’t far-left, hardcore ideas, but perfectly mainstream policies that are working well in many other countries).

Agreed, and I felt it was fucking stupid of Labour to be saying "this is the most radical manifesto ever" etc. That isn't the fucking sell. The sell was, as you allude to, this is bog standard centre left economics. The sort that can be seen all over Europe. There wasn't a great deal of "seizing the means of production" and nationalising bakeries. It was just, maybe make sure nurses don't have to go to food banks, try not to have millions of kids in poverty, etc. The language used allowed the dim to equate it with communism.

 

It should have been made quite clear that the current economic choices being made are considerably more radical than those than Labour were putting forward.

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