General Election 2019

[Red Phoenix]

7 hours ago, Brownie said:

Well that poll has sucked any hope out of me. Praying for the fella on Twitter to be right but the equivalent Survation poll in 2017 had the gap at 1%.

 

Thursday is going to be heartbreaking isn’t it?

 

Had lost hope too but have got some back now that we can at least get a hung parliament. The lack of variation from polls doesn't have to mean that they've all found the right area, it could be that they're all converging in the wrong place instead. And maybe Survation got lucky last time and this election it'll be someone else that's a lot closer due to having better methods.

 

At least we're almost there anyway, a few more antisemitism smears and maybe some more ravings about where the NHS/Brexit leaks came from so they can rant about Russia for the 10,000th time and we can finally wait for the exit polls.

 

 

[Mudface]

7 hours ago, Brownie said:

Well that poll has sucked any hope out of me. Praying for the fella on Twitter to be right but the equivalent Survation poll in 2017 had the gap at 1%.

 

Thursday is going to be heartbreaking isn’t it?

I think so, yes. Not as bad as 1992 or 2015 as we're expecting it to be shite, but pretty crushing all the same. It's not just the poll leads- even when polls are wrong, enough of them generally capture the movement in voter intention, but they've largely been either stagnant or showing an increased Tory lead rather than the momentum we saw in 2017.

[clockspeed]

8 minutes ago, Stickman said:

Gutted truly gutted ….A guy who speaks so eloquently on the issue of racism can stand there and help get elected an actual racist and after Windrush and who's party has a hatred for the city which you claim to love and especially after what he helped write with Simon Heffer about Hillsborough ...

I know who you vote for is a personal choice and I kind of knew John is a Tory like a fair few ex-reds (Smith, Hughes) but at least keep it to yourself you thick cunt.

Comes to something when Gary Neville has gone up in my estimation while John has hit rock bottom

 

 

Get how you feel and as you say everyone has personal choice 

 

Away from the football we are looking at a man who has consistently been pilloried by blacks and whites on his views on racism in football. Basically his view is fix societies racist  tendancies or you will never eradicate racism in sport (simplistic view from me) . He has taken a lot of flak from all sides wanting football to be blamed for the rise of/continuing racism he having none of it. 

 

So he bucking the trend with racism narrative and I tend to agree with him. For example he believes taking a team of the pitch is giving in to the racists and should not be considered an option. 

 

So he is a thinker and "sees" issues differently we need to respect that. I would be disappointed if this forum and fans start expressing opinions on him based on how he votes. Time and again he has proven himself to Liverpool and LFC . 

 

 

 

[Moo]

10 minutes ago, clockspeed said:

Get how you feel and as you say everyone has personal choice 

 

Away from the football we are looking at a man who has consistently been pilloried by blacks and whites on his views on racism in football. Basically his view is fix societies racist  tendancies or you will never eradicate racism in sport (simplistic view from me) . He has taken a lot of flak from all sides wanting football to be blamed for the rise of/continuing racism he having none of it. 

 

So he bucking the trend with racism narrative and I tend to agree with him. For example he believes taking a team of the pitch is giving in to the racists and should not be considered an option. 

 

So he is a thinker and "sees" issues differently we need to respect that. I would be disappointed if this forum and fans start expressing opinions on him based on how he votes. Time and again he has proven himself to Liverpool and LFC . 

 

 

 

But how can he talk about resolving racism in society while, allegedly, supporting a man who encourages racism in society?  There's going against the grain, and then there's total hypocrisy. 

I say allegedly by the way as a photo is not evidence he supports Johnson or the Tories and I'm hoping he's just there to support grassroots f**tb*ll. 

[clockspeed]

16 minutes ago, Moo said:

But how can he talk about resolving racism in society while, allegedly, supporting a man who encourages racism in society?  There's going against the grain, and then there's total hypocrisy. 

I say allegedly by the way as a photo is not evidence he supports Johnson or the Tories and I'm hoping he's just there to support grassroots f**tb*ll. 

Look I am with you in all you are saying. Again we need to know context of picture bit what I am saying is that regardless John has a track record of having and arguing for want of a better word controversial or against flavour of the month views. Perhaps he is a Tory perhaps not I am not interested in his political leaning I know how he represented the club and community. 

[moof]

2 hours ago, Stickman said:

Gutted truly gutted ….A guy who speaks so eloquently on the issue of racism can stand there and help get elected an actual racist and after Windrush and who's party has a hatred for the city which you claim to love and especially after what he helped write with Simon Heffer about Hillsborough ...

I know who you vote for is a personal choice and I kind of knew John is a Tory like a fair few ex-reds (Smith, Hughes) but at least keep it to yourself you thick cunt.

Comes to something when Gary Neville has gone up in my estimation while John has hit rock bottom

 

 

Surely John Barnes is not a Tory voter, right? There has to be a rational explanation for that picture 

[moof]

No, apparently it was at a Tory campaign event. That’s really shite

[Denny Crane]

9 hours ago, MegadriveMan said:

Why has Southport always been anti Labour?

If you mention Labour to a lot of older Southport people they say Derek Hatton, Militant and benefit cheats. Then the Lib Dems for sometime had a strong presence locally. There is also a bit of the Hycienth bucket about some of the people. To sum up some of their mentality my dads neighbour says we need a referendum to get Southport out of Sefton. Definitely changing though due to demographics and the cuts to local authority budgets. 

[Stickman]

14 minutes ago, moof said:

No, apparently it was at a Tory campaign event. That’s really shite

 

 

Really really shite. Especially when he must know what these twats have done in terms of council funding cuts to this city...

And when Johnson does frightening rallying cries like this to the knuckle draggers and how they lap it up

 

 

 

[Scooby Dudek]

Peter Kellner Former President of Yougov has just said that his current prediction going into the last week of the campaign is a Conservative majority of 40, but to bare in mind that going into the last week of the campaign of 2017 he predicted a Conservative majority of 40. 

[Jairzinho]

27 minutes ago, moof said:

No, apparently it was at a Tory campaign event. That’s really shite

It's really depressing.

[Denny Crane]

 

Former Lehman Brothers and head of the ERG. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Denny Crane]

The flipside is... 

 

 

 

 

[Vincent Vega]

This is a depressing take from Sky News' Lewis Goodall (the bit in bold is definitely true as I've heard similar stuff from various people).

 

 

General election: Corbyn's greatest failure is not providing a left-wing alternative to Brexit

Jeremy Corbyn has no convincing Labour version of diagnosing the malaise Brexit has wrought in its stead, Lewis Goodall writes.

Lewis Goodall

Political correspondent @lewis_goodall

Monday 9 December 2019 09:32, UK

In 2017 there was a place I realised I knew something about the election that others didn't.

You wouldn't think, looking at the Cue Club, West Heath, a snooker hall not far away from where I grew up in Birmingham, that it'd be an obvious place for revelation.

 

But when I went there, in the middle of that fevered few weeks of the campaign of that year, I knew that the polls weren't right; I knew that the national political conversation was wrong headed; I knew Labour were heading to a far more creditable performance than was commonly assumed.

There it was obvious that Conservative overtures to this bit of the Midlands working class, were failing, or at least, not succeeding enough.

 

Old loyalties, congenital Labourism, was re-establishing itself. Most of all, the Tory attempt to link the party with any kind of Brexit reversal had manifestly failed.

 

I remember speaking to one man who had been a Labour voter, migrated to UKIP and was returning; I asked him what he thought of the Theresa May argument that you could only guarantee Brexit if you voted Conservative.

I expected fuzzy approval, but instead he was entirely cold. "Why should I? You can vote how you like. We're leaving anyway."

 

The 2017 election thus rested on a conceit which barely registered with the voters on whom it relied. 2019 feels different. This time, when I returned to the Cue Club, Conservative framing was ubiquitous.

 

Labour has become associated with attempts to block or reverse our leaving the EU. Ian, a man who describes himself as a socialist, said he just couldn't back the party this time, as much as he approved of Jeremy Corbyn's platform: "Who do they represent? Not me. Not us."

 

Chantelle, a mother of three, whom I remember telling me two years ago that she would back Labour "because they have the best policies for me and my family", said she didn't know what to think now.

 

Most worryingly for the party, she couldn't even really say why. She said she saw so much online, heard from "other mums in the playground" about Mr Corbyn; "they're all saying 'Jeremy Corbyn this, Jeremy Corbyn that', you just don't know what to think".

 

As with the Brexit question, the importance of the turning of time is underestimated; in 2017 the Brexit process had barely begun, Article 50 only just triggered, for many it did not occur that parliament would try and stop something they had only just voted to initiate; likewise Mr Corbyn was still relatively unknown among the general public.

 

His personal ratings inched close to that of Mrs May's. Thus the two primary pillars of the 2017 Conservative campaign were built on the weakest foundations. Today they are carrying greater weight.

 

On both, years worth of occluded campaigning, largely unnoticed by those in Westminster, has transformed views about Labour and its leader. Talk to any working class voter for long enough and you'll hear a fragment of something they've seen on Facebook, an echo of a whisper about something connected with the IRA or terrorism, or desire to disband the army or some such.

 

Story after story, sometimes fake tweets, or some tales about Mr Corbyn's past.

 

This slow marinade helps explain why views around him are so impacted, why his personal ratings have remained stubbornly low. The invective is profound; They can't even tell you why they hate him, so they just do.

 

That doesn't mean that these voters are backing the Tories, for many still a step too far. There isn't that much transference. Most just won't vote at all, which is probably all the Conservatives need.

 

It's more than that though; whatever Remainers say about the referendum being only advisory, or long ago, it misses the point of the pain which the impression of its dismissal has created. Rightly or wrongly, class politics suffuses the interpretation of the election result.

 

Again and again you hear "they don't pay attention, our vote counts for nothing". It causes incomprehension. For certain types of voter, the Brexit process has thus reaffirmed and cemented old doubts about politics.

 

In their minds, it has proven that change is not possible, that democracy doesn't work, that its practitioners aren't interested in making it work for anyone but themselves. We hear a lot about the supposed anger of certain places.

 

There's some of that but at least as abundant is pure confusion and incomprehension. One of the reasons there are so many undecideds in this election, why things are so unpredictable, is that voters have lost so much trust.

 

They don't, they can't rely on any politicians in the way they used to help them make sense of the world. For certain Leave voters, they look at politics and see a gaping space where they thought would be political cause and effect.

 

In that space, it has been filled with slogans like "Get Brexit Done" and worse. For Labour Leavers in particular, a Brexit infused narrative from the right has replaced and reordered the way they interpret politics, where the left used to be.

 

It is perhaps Mr Corbyn's greatest failure as leader that he provided no left wing alternative, no convincing Labour version of diagnosing the constitutional and political malaise Brexit has wrought in its stead. If Labour loses these voters at this election, who knows, perhaps forever, that is one of the main reasons why.

 

Beyond this election though, the doubt about the ability for politics to affect change has a more invidious effect for Labour. If Brexit has proved to them that political change is impossible that must by definition affect the party which is promising most change of all, will affect Mr Corbyn because he is offering nothing less than transformation.

 

When you put these policies to people who would on paper benefit most, they screw up their faces, spit them back. It is as if they don't wish to be fooled. That they've been fooled once already.

 

Some, though not all, choose Mr Johnson and his limited vision, promising little, instead. So caustic are they, so low their opinion of politics, it's almost a sense they'd rather get little and know what it is they get.

 

There is no love for Mr Johnson. They think he is a knave. But they think all politicians are. Some, not all, in places like the Cue Club seem to be concluding better the knave you know.

[Rico1304]

John Barnes is cancelled?  Interesting turn of events. Goes to show how fucking mental it is.  

[moof]

Just now, Rico1304 said:

John Barnes is cancelled?  Interesting turn of events. Goes to show how fucking mental it is.  

How do you know if you’ve got us all on ignore you tedious bellsniff 

[Pidge]

 

https://twitter.com/seashelltrust/status/1203354125792169986

[Tony Moanero]

 

[Pidge]

Also, I think the full picture tells a story about whether Barnes is there for the kids or to provide any form of political endorsement.

 

https://twitter.com/seashelltrust/status/1203354125792169986

 

 

[Tony Moanero]

 

[aRdja]

11 minutes ago, Vincent Vega said:

This is a depressing take from Sky News' Lewis Goodall (the bit in bold is definitely true as I've heard similar stuff from various people).

 

 

General election: Corbyn's greatest failure is not providing a left-wing alternative to Brexit

Jeremy Corbyn has no convincing Labour version of diagnosing the malaise Brexit has wrought in its stead, Lewis Goodall writes.

Lewis Goodall

Political correspondent @lewis_goodall

Monday 9 December 2019 09:32, UK

In 2017 there was a place I realised I knew something about the election that others didn't.

You wouldn't think, looking at the Cue Club, West Heath, a snooker hall not far away from where I grew up in Birmingham, that it'd be an obvious place for revelation.

 

But when I went there, in the middle of that fevered few weeks of the campaign of that year, I knew that the polls weren't right; I knew that the national political conversation was wrong headed; I knew Labour were heading to a far more creditable performance than was commonly assumed.

There it was obvious that Conservative overtures to this bit of the Midlands working class, were failing, or at least, not succeeding enough.

 

Old loyalties, congenital Labourism, was re-establishing itself. Most of all, the Tory attempt to link the party with any kind of Brexit reversal had manifestly failed.

 

I remember speaking to one man who had been a Labour voter, migrated to UKIP and was returning; I asked him what he thought of the Theresa May argument that you could only guarantee Brexit if you voted Conservative.

I expected fuzzy approval, but instead he was entirely cold. "Why should I? You can vote how you like. We're leaving anyway."

 

The 2017 election thus rested on a conceit which barely registered with the voters on whom it relied. 2019 feels different. This time, when I returned to the Cue Club, Conservative framing was ubiquitous.

 

Labour has become associated with attempts to block or reverse our leaving the EU. Ian, a man who describes himself as a socialist, said he just couldn't back the party this time, as much as he approved of Jeremy Corbyn's platform: "Who do they represent? Not me. Not us."

 

Chantelle, a mother of three, whom I remember telling me two years ago that she would back Labour "because they have the best policies for me and my family", said she didn't know what to think now.

 

Most worryingly for the party, she couldn't even really say why. She said she saw so much online, heard from "other mums in the playground" about Mr Corbyn; "they're all saying 'Jeremy Corbyn this, Jeremy Corbyn that', you just don't know what to think".

 

As with the Brexit question, the importance of the turning of time is underestimated; in 2017 the Brexit process had barely begun, Article 50 only just triggered, for many it did not occur that parliament would try and stop something they had only just voted to initiate; likewise Mr Corbyn was still relatively unknown among the general public.

 

His personal ratings inched close to that of Mrs May's. Thus the two primary pillars of the 2017 Conservative campaign were built on the weakest foundations. Today they are carrying greater weight.

 

On both, years worth of occluded campaigning, largely unnoticed by those in Westminster, has transformed views about Labour and its leader. Talk to any working class voter for long enough and you'll hear a fragment of something they've seen on Facebook, an echo of a whisper about something connected with the IRA or terrorism, or desire to disband the army or some such.

 

Story after story, sometimes fake tweets, or some tales about Mr Corbyn's past.

 

This slow marinade helps explain why views around him are so impacted, why his personal ratings have remained stubbornly low. The invective is profound; They can't even tell you why they hate him, so they just do.

 

That doesn't mean that these voters are backing the Tories, for many still a step too far. There isn't that much transference. Most just won't vote at all, which is probably all the Conservatives need.

 

It's more than that though; whatever Remainers say about the referendum being only advisory, or long ago, it misses the point of the pain which the impression of its dismissal has created. Rightly or wrongly, class politics suffuses the interpretation of the election result.

 

Again and again you hear "they don't pay attention, our vote counts for nothing". It causes incomprehension. For certain types of voter, the Brexit process has thus reaffirmed and cemented old doubts about politics.

 

In their minds, it has proven that change is not possible, that democracy doesn't work, that its practitioners aren't interested in making it work for anyone but themselves. We hear a lot about the supposed anger of certain places.

 

There's some of that but at least as abundant is pure confusion and incomprehension. One of the reasons there are so many undecideds in this election, why things are so unpredictable, is that voters have lost so much trust.

 

They don't, they can't rely on any politicians in the way they used to help them make sense of the world. For certain Leave voters, they look at politics and see a gaping space where they thought would be political cause and effect.

 

In that space, it has been filled with slogans like "Get Brexit Done" and worse. For Labour Leavers in particular, a Brexit infused narrative from the right has replaced and reordered the way they interpret politics, where the left used to be.

 

It is perhaps Mr Corbyn's greatest failure as leader that he provided no left wing alternative, no convincing Labour version of diagnosing the constitutional and political malaise Brexit has wrought in its stead. If Labour loses these voters at this election, who knows, perhaps forever, that is one of the main reasons why.

 

Beyond this election though, the doubt about the ability for politics to affect change has a more invidious effect for Labour. If Brexit has proved to them that political change is impossible that must by definition affect the party which is promising most change of all, will affect Mr Corbyn because he is offering nothing less than transformation.

 

When you put these policies to people who would on paper benefit most, they screw up their faces, spit them back. It is as if they don't wish to be fooled. That they've been fooled once already.

 

Some, though not all, choose Mr Johnson and his limited vision, promising little, instead. So caustic are they, so low their opinion of politics, it's almost a sense they'd rather get little and know what it is they get.

 

There is no love for Mr Johnson. They think he is a knave. But they think all politicians are. Some, not all, in places like the Cue Club seem to be concluding better the knave you know.

It’s pretty much what I’ve been saying all along. Labour should’ve backed Brexit here, with the promise of 2nd referendum to attract the remainers.

[Rico1304]

Oh, right, so it was a load of quims jumping to conclusions?  Who’d have thought that was possible either? Welcome back John Barnes. Phew. 

[moof]

Happy to see that from Barnes’ niece(?) or some relation anyway. Was beginning to question reality 

[Red Phoenix]

15 minutes ago, Rico1304 said:

John Barnes is cancelled?  Interesting turn of events. Goes to show how fucking mental it is.  

Nope, he's joined them as an agent of the left to boost their election chances. Then once they drag us out of the EU he can support Labour and talk about the complete fucking mess the Tories have made of everything. Then when loads of the left call him a hypocrite for being with Boris he can just say : "Was only having a game of footie." It's 5-d chess.

[Pidge]

2 minutes ago, moof said:

Happy to see that from Barnes’ niece(?) or some relation anyway. Was beginning to question reality 

Daughter.