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VAR shit show 19/20

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4 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

I gave up expecting anything from PL officials years ago,and I mean that in all honesty. It is no coincidence that there were no PL officials at the last world cup and yet 'lesser' countries such as Iran,Algeria etc had refs who were doing a competent job.

The whole idea of var is to help refs isn't it? So instead of var ignoring when refs get it wrong, just get it right, it's not hard, they've got about 10 angles. Even the mancs on sky agreed that one. I don't see how the standard of refs should have anything to do with how var see it. These are not tough calls, they're simple. Origi was fouled. Vertongen was a pen. Ali was handball. The villa goal wasn't a foul. It's fucking mental, we seem to be getting more wrong under var than we did before. 

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15 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

The whole idea of var is to help refs isn't it? So instead of var ignoring when refs get it wrong, just get it right, it's not hard, they've got about 10 angles. Even the mancs on sky agreed that one. I don't see how the standard of refs should have anything to do with how var see it. These are not tough calls, they're simple. Origi was fouled. Vertongen was a pen. Ali was handball. The villa goal wasn't a foul. It's fucking mental, we seem to be getting more wrong under var than we did before. 

I don’t think Origi was fouled, but Alli and Mane decision should’ve been consistent IMO. You can’t give a goal for one and not the other.

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13 hours ago, VladimirIlyich said:

He'd lost control of the ball and was already going down. That was my opinion in real time and I am sticking to it. VAR is shite,but so were we on the day and we are fortunate to take a point from it.

On a brighter note,I stuck a fiver free bet at 6/1 on United to win just before they scored(hoping for some reverse psychology!) but it turned out I'd actually backed them to be winning at half time so won £30. Small comfort from another miserable OT performance.

It was very much like the Napoli penalty. It could have gone either way depends on what incompetent cunt was reffing and who they were playing.

 

I'm pissed off that it was given but I'm more pissed off that it is forming part of the conversation as we wnt there and shit the bed again. 

 

So many players stank the place out yesterday that this is a bit of a side issue for me.

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3 minutes ago, SlugTrail said:

It was very much like the Napoli penalty. It could have gone either way depends on what incompetent cunt was reffing and who they were playing.

 

I'm pissed off that it was given but I'm more pissed off that it is forming part of the conversation as we wnt there and shit the bed again. 

 

So many players stank the place out yesterday that this is a bit of a side issue for me.

Very much agree. Just hope the performance was yet another post international blip. Henderson has looked shattered this season and was very poor again yesterday.

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3 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Very much agree. Just hope the performance was yet another post international blip. Henderson has looked shattered this season and was very poor again yesterday.

I was more worried about trent. Hi passing was abysmal. Bobby wasn't much better.

 

I agree about Henderson, he did his best Gini invisible man act, whereas Gini played very well.

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15 hours ago, Colt Seavers said:

This.

Under the law the Mane goal should have been disallowed do VAR was right on that, it is the rule that is long.

You could potentially get a situation where the ball bounces off a defenders arm inadvertently onto an attackers arm who is a yard away, the attacking team scores but the goal is disallowed for handball.

The first one was bullshit and noone can convince me that wasn't a foul, if VAR ain't overturning that then there is no point in it.

You may not be convinced otherwise, but VAR shouldn’t overturn that.

 

For me, Clive, it was soft, and a million of those happen every week. Some get given, some don’t, and honestly I don’t think it was a much of a foul. 
 

If Origi’s touch doesn’t get away from himself, maybe it’s given, but he went down like a sack of spuds after a poor first touch. Those don’t get given.

 

That was on Origi, and we were way too easily opened up after it, too.

 

Asking for VAR to rescue us there is asking for too much.

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VAR is fucking shit and it's not because of yesterday. It's taking all the joy from scoring because the first thing you think now is whether or not VAR will allow the goal to stand. The most important part of the game for supporters, the celebration when your team scores, is being destroyed.

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15 hours ago, Bjornebye said:

VAR should just be for offside. Thats it. 

Quite a bit of sense in that, keep it for the binary decisions, like Offside, whether the ball hit the attacker's hand or not in the lead up to a goal (which isn't VAR's fault per se, but it helps clear it up whilst the silly law is in place). Remove the subjectivity, or at least leave it with the referees. 

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17 minutes ago, Mcfaggen said:

Quite a bit of sense in that, keep it for the binary decisions, like Offside, whether the ball hit the attacker's hand or not in the lead up to a goal (which isn't VAR's fault per se, but it helps clear it up whilst the silly law is in place). Remove the subjectivity, or at least leave it with the referees. 

Thats the problem with subjective decisions. One mans foul is another mans flirting. Let the Ref decide that by the whistle. Far too many breaks after goals. I jumped round like a maniac when Mane scored. I was still out of breath when i called the ref a corrupt cunt a minute later. Its not on. 

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3 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I don’t think Origi was fouled, but Alli and Mane decision should’ve been consistent IMO. You can’t give a goal for one and not the other.

Why don't you think he was fouled? The lad kicks him and doesn't even try to kick the ball. 

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3 hours ago, viRdjil said:

I don’t think Origi was fouled, but Alli and Mane decision should’ve been consistent IMO. You can’t give a goal for one and not the other.

P2rU.gif

 

 

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17 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

Klopp in the post-game pinpointed the problem perfectly.

 

The issue is not VAR - of course a referee with a second and third angle, and slow-motion, will get more calls correct that one without it and will be more consistent across different decisions.

 

And I'm not even sure that the problem is the "clear and obvious" metric. Obviously that introduces some subjectivity but I don't have a big problem if we only use VAR on fairly rare occasions where the referee has made an unquestionably huge error.

 

The problem, as Jurgen noted, is that the existence of VAR affects the way the game is refereed in terms of the live refereeing. We've already seen it with the offside calls - balls that used to be just flagged by the assistant, leading to a free kick for the defending team, are now being allowed to play on with the logic that "in case they score we can always check it later." Which, of course, leads to things like corner kicks that should have never happened, and the like.

 

This is magnified many times over when it comes to open-play decisions like the one we had today. Klopp's point was that if Atkinson is a competent referee he would have called the foul on Origi today. He didn't, because he's thinking "it might be a dive, couldn't tell for sure, so I'll let it go and VAR can fix it later." This, combined with the weird interpretation of "clear and obvious" which has led to 0 calls being overturned, leads to bad decisions, worse than you'd actually have without VAR at all.

 

Now, I'm not sure I agree with Klopp on this particular call - Atkinson is so incompetent that I think it's entirely possible that he wouldn't have called that foul even if VAR didn't exist - but the point is valid. Referees are letting things go that they would normally call - this seems clear. In the back of their minds they know that VAR will look again and then fix it when they make mistakes. But then the implementation of VAR has been such that they refuse to contradict a referee's initial call, even when it was made with him leaning towards letting play continue rather than calling it as he sees it, because of VAR.

 

All in all, it's led to a situation where infractions aren't being called properly. I expect it to be fixed over the next year or two (and then we'll find something else to moan about) but it's going to be very frustrating in the meantime.


The problem with Klopp's interpretation is that VAR would only ever had a look at the foul on Origi if the goal was scored as a result, which, at the time, was very difficult to expect. Fouls in the middle of the pitch don't really go to VAR. Why would the ref think let VAR deal with it on that particular foul and not on each and every other call he had to make?

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38 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

Why don't you think he was fouled? The lad kicks him and doesn't even try to kick the ball. 

He went down too easily. He miscontrolled the ball and dived IMO.

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6 minutes ago, viRdjil said:

He went down too easily. He miscontrolled the ball and dived IMO.

Yep. Hate to say it, but that's pretty much what happened. Refs give fouls for those all the time, but it's not a clear-cut decision. It's not one you can complain about if you don't get the call, imo, because it's clear embellishment of a small amount of contact.

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And the biggest problem now with VAR is that it's basically just a tool to confirm a referee's decision, at least as it pertains to the Premier League. There's absolutely no point in having it if you're too scared it's going to undermine what referees do.

 

Its use has been just comical. Either they've given it way too much importance like at the World Cup or they're too scared to use it, like in England. Might as well just scrap it if you're not smart enough to use it correctly.

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7 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Yep. Hate to say it, but that's pretty much what happened. Refs give fouls for those all the time, but it's not a clear-cut decision. It's not one you can complain about if you don't get the call, imo, because it's clear embellishment of a small amount of contact.

Yeah, a bit like late in the 2nd half when Mane and McGuire went for a ball in their box, Sadio made a tiny bit of contact, Slabhead goes down like a sack of spuds....and gets the free-kick. If anything, there's less contact than that on Origi. Consistency. Thresholds - what's 'minimal', what's 'substantial'. If you're going to apply the 'minimal contact' thing, it has to be applied consistently, otherwise you're leaving yourself open to legitimate accusations of bias, which is exactly what Atkinson did yesterday. Really can't understand anyone suggesting Origi wasn't fouled, when he's clearly kicked - you can even see his calf muscle rippling with the impact.

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I believe in some kind of karma for fouls. Origi messed up his touch, felt a tiny bit of contact, collapsed and started rolling around. He looked like an idiot and didn't really deserve anything as a result. He could have gotten the foul, but I'm not mad he didn't.

 

Conversely, 2 weeks ago, Leicester did a bunch of dumb shit in their own box and clumsily made light contact with Mané who won a pen. The contact is similar in both instances but to me both outcomes were justice.

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Maybe we should poach Tottenham's falling-down coach to make our 'embellishments' look more authentic. (Still wouldn't get us a decision at OT,mind).

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9 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I believe in some kind of karma for fouls. Origi messed up his touch, felt a tiny bit of contact, collapsed and started rolling around. He looked like an idiot and didn't really deserve anything as a result. He could have gotten the foul, but I'm not mad he didn't.

 

Conversely, 2 weeks ago, Leicester did a bunch of dumb shit in their own box and clumsily made light contact with Mané who won a pen. The contact is similar in both instances but to me both outcomes were justice.

Are you ok? 

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I don't think Origi miss controlled that all, he done exactly what he wanted to do. Anyone who doesn't see that as a foul needs to give up.

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19 hours ago, DimReaper said:

It was a foul for me but it was pretty obvious that it wasn't going to get overturned given how VAR's been used this season. It was completely consistent with that so any shout of bias regarding the use of VAR today doesn't stand up for me. The refereeing today though was definitely a little bit off. 

After I posted this, I watched MOTD2 having not seen the games the previous night - there were actually two goals disallowed for fouls in the build up that day - one Wood scored for Burnley and one Villa scored, neither of which were unequivocally fouls using the usual high threshold. So I don't really know anymore. Perhaps it's something to do with proximity to the goal being scored, or something to do with whether or not the ref saw/missed the foul, or maybe they are just making it up as they go along. 

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