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VAR shit show 19/20

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5 minutes ago, Barry Wom said:

 For VAR fan boys, what problem is VAR solving?  

Offsides. 

 

The penalty would have been given tonight with no VAR.  The ref made a mistake but it wasn't deemed to be clear and obvious.  But VAR didn't cause the penalty. 

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1 minute ago, Captain Turdseye said:

If the ref hadn’t have given that tonight, they wouldn’t have overturned it, so if they can’t or won’t overturn penalty decisions then surely it makes more sense to wait until the ball goes out of play and then have a look at it. Or blow the whistle when the attacking phase ends and then have a drop ball or something. 

 .

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44 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Offsides. 

 

The penalty would have been given tonight with no VAR.  The ref made a mistake but it wasn't deemed to be clear and obvious.  But VAR didn't cause the penalty. 

 

But therein lies the problem. Its double standards. If somebody is offside because their left foot is slightly ahead of the defender, any subsequent goal will be ruled out. But on such a small margin you might argue it wasn’t a clear and obvious mistake by the assistant as it was such a close call. But the goal will still be ruled out.

 

Yet when it comes to a penalty a completely different standard is being applied, where someone can take a dive and yet still get the penalty - even though on a replay the dive is substantially less marginal than the offside.

 

It’s nonsense. It should correct mistakes by ruling on offsides and penalties to the same standard, or ditch it and let’s just go back to moaning about refs for the normal reasons. I’d happily do without it, to be honest.

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47 minutes ago, TK421 said:

Offsides. 

 

The penalty would have been given tonight with no VAR.  The ref made a mistake but it wasn't deemed to be clear and obvious.  But VAR didn't cause the penalty. 

It doesn't solve offsides. Some bloke draws an arbitrary line on a screen and they make a call based on that, it's not computer driven and is no better than the subjective call made by linesmen. And lino's get over 98% of offsides right anyway according to figures the refs threw out last season. 

 

I don't mind refs get it wrong. I do mind a television system that is supposed to help get it right doesn't do any of the sort. It just promotes bad refereeing, they get it wrong and then go "not my fault, even the fellas watching on telly supported me". 

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3 minutes ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

Once again, for the ones in the back:

 

VAR is not the problem.

 

The implementation of VAR is the problem.

 

Hope that helps.

So far at uefa and premier League level have both get it wrong. Which version of var works then?

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The shoddy implementation means var is a problem. I was all for it but if they’re going to use it in this slapdash manner, it doesn’t improve consistency in decision making, reaching the correct outcome seemingly doesn’t matter. It’s not fit for purpose. 

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As it stands, it promotes and encourages diving and so forth. Makes it a true art form - if you hone your ability to simulate convincingly, not even a second official has the power to overrule your ill-gotten gains.

 

I maintain that VAR is a good idea in principle, but the “clear and obvious error” aspect needs to be tossed out. In a moment of controversy, the replay-equipped video ref should be king. If a decision is wrong, it’s wrong. 

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1 hour ago, Barry Wom said:

So far at uefa and premier League level have both get it wrong. Which version of var works then?

None of them, so far. But it's the first season, give them some time!

 

A referee with the benefit of video evidence is always going to be better than a referee with only the evidence of what he saw at full speed. In other words, it is self-evident that VAR will improve the accuracy of calls.

 

I reckon it will be difficult for the FA to change the "clear and obvious error" language this season, so we're going to suffer through a season of problems. Hopefully next summer they will look at it again and get it better.

 

To me the real problem with what they're doing now isn't even the fact that they're using the "clear and obvious error" threshold to use VAR. I wouldn't have a problem with VAR being used somewhat like the video review system in the NFL where they only overturn it if it's not a subjective thing, but an actual mistake that needs to be fixed.

 

No, the problem right now is actually that it's massively affecting the in-game refereeing. I would almost guarantee that without VAR in place, that Matip headlock would have been called a penalty in past seasons. I think what happened is the ref has thought "I think that's a pen, but I can't be 100% sure, so I won't blow for it, and if it is, they'll get it in the booth." And then the VAR people have said "well, it is almost certainly a penalty, but it's a subjective call and maaaaaybe there's a referee out there who wouldn't give it, so I suppose we can't either" and then it doesn't get called.

 

It's stupid and obviously wrong. What's worse, it's easy to see that this was going to happen. You need a referee looking at the video who will just overrule the ref on the pitch if he's wrong, pure and simple. The standard of "wrongness" to be reached before overruling is debatable but then if it's a high bar the referee on the pitch has to ignore the fact that there's VAR backing him up and just make the call he thinks is right rather than trusting to VAR to change it if he gets it wrong.

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I think a trend is emerging - especially in diving instances - of the VAR ref not not wanting to embarrass the on-field ref by correcting a decision.  Subjectivity.

 

Unlike cricket, for example, where once it goes upstairs... virtually no subjective protection of the on-field umpire is apparent. (Hence, umpires in cricket becoming more and more reluctant to give an "out" decision - which of course can also be counter-productive in making them look non-authoritative and incompetent.)

 

In Naples, had the ref not given that penalty... VAR would not have given the penalty either.

 

So, in this instance, VAR only made me think it was more interested in looking after the ref, than the correct decision being arrived at.

 

Video referrals. In one way or another, unsatisfying.

 

 

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The biggest mistake last night was Robertson dangling his leg out for the striker to go over.   Do that every week and we'll be blaming the ref/var every week. 

 

 

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I’m basically pro VAR cause without it too many games are decided by refereeing errors.

 

When, like yesterday, games are still decided by clear refereeing errors despite VAR, the whole point is gone and it becomes just a waste of time and money. And a demonstration of incompetence.

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For me, the only way it's going to work is if the referee on the field can look at the replays (like in the World Cup). VAR can tell him that he should look at an incident but the final decision is his. I know the time taken to do this is a problem but I don't see any other way of doing it without taking all authority from the on field ref.

Maybe some kind of NFL-style challenge system can also be used.

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6 minutes ago, Jenson said:

For me, the only way it's going to work is if the referee on the field can look at the replays (like in the World Cup). VAR can tell him that he should look at an incident but the final decision is his. I know the time taken to do this is a problem but I don't see any other way of doing it without taking all authority from the on field ref.

Maybe some kind of NFL-style challenge system can also be used.

Not a bad idea. I don't like the challenges idea though as a decision needs to 'correct' and done quickly.

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9 hours ago, Ne Moe Imya said:

None of them, so far. But it's the first season, give them some time!

 

A referee with the benefit of video evidence is always going to be better than a referee with only the evidence of what he saw at full speed. In other words, it is self-evident that VAR will improve the accuracy of calls.

 

I reckon it will be difficult for the FA to change the "clear and obvious error" language this season, so we're going to suffer through a season of problems. Hopefully next summer they will look at it again and get it better.

 

To me the real problem with what they're doing now isn't even the fact that they're using the "clear and obvious error" threshold to use VAR. I wouldn't have a problem with VAR being used somewhat like the video review system in the NFL where they only overturn it if it's not a subjective thing, but an actual mistake that needs to be fixed.

 

No, the problem right now is actually that it's massively affecting the in-game refereeing. I would almost guarantee that without VAR in place, that Matip headlock would have been called a penalty in past seasons. I think what happened is the ref has thought "I think that's a pen, but I can't be 100% sure, so I won't blow for it, and if it is, they'll get it in the booth." And then the VAR people have said "well, it is almost certainly a penalty, but it's a subjective call and maaaaaybe there's a referee out there who wouldn't give it, so I suppose we can't either" and then it doesn't get called.

 

It's stupid and obviously wrong. What's worse, it's easy to see that this was going to happen. You need a referee looking at the video who will just overrule the ref on the pitch if he's wrong, pure and simple. The standard of "wrongness" to be reached before overruling is debatable but then if it's a high bar the referee on the pitch has to ignore the fact that there's VAR backing him up and just make the call he thinks is right rather than trusting to VAR to change it if he gets it wrong.

The thing is, you mention the matip incident on Saturday, but last night and the dive from Abraham in the super cup were the exact opposite, the ref has given a pen when there's no pen to give. 

 

For me refs will always make mistakes and I'm fine with that, they're human. If we're using var it should be with the intent of getting more decisions right. But it seems to me, that basic idea of getting more decisions right is not what they're doing, they're almost running a situation that is designed to back up poor decisions. "Our refs aren't shit, even the fellas with the TV's agree with them". In fact I'd go as far as to say it almost promotes the idea of corruption as if a ref is suspected of being bent, he can say "don't blame me, you've got var to fix anything I do wrong, but they agreed with me"

 

And as for it's the 1st season, it is for the PL, but it's been around elsewhere for ages (maybe 3rd in Germany?) and was used in the last world cup - this is the refined version. They did var, got slagged off because it was stopping the game too much and still getting things wrong, so went for a double down on bad decisions version of var. It's fucking shambolic.

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I think one of the reasons VAR seems to have made things worse is that people, commentators etc are still applying old logic like "seen em given".  There's no way that was a penalty last night yet the fact there's commentators and panelists out there saying "I'm not sure" or "seen em given" legitimises the decisions and that it wasn't a clear and obvious error.  The point is we now have VAR so the old justifications shouldn't apply. I accept that there will still be differences of opinion in some cases but that last night couldn't be clearer. 

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It was the wrong call by the referee. It wasn't corrected by the VAR officials. It is entirely the fault of the officials. VAR is a decent idea but it is still being operated by the baboons who would otherwise be fucking up the game out there on the pitch. Again and as always, it's the fucking referees who distort the game and often dictate results.

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There's really no point in moaning about VAR, because more than likely it'll even itself out by the end of the season

 

You can bet your bottom dollar we'll get something going our way soon enough because of it. 

 

Swings and roundabouts 

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In general I have always been for VAR but there has been a clear change in it since the World Cup (where I think it worked well). We can only speculate as to why it’s changed but i’m inclined to think it’s due to the moaning about it interrupting the game etc.

 

So now we have a farcical situation where decisions will only be over-turned if the ref has made a catastrophic error as opposed to just a very bad one, like last night and the weekend (Matip).

 

It’s completely pointless now so they should just get rid of it.

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54 minutes ago, chrisbonnie said:

There's really no point in moaning about VAR, because more than likely it'll even itself out by the end of the season

 

You can bet your bottom dollar we'll get something going our way soon enough because of it. 

 

Swings and roundabouts 

Correct,  cut out the retarded defending and we won't be blaming anyone anyway. 

 

Piss poor from Robertson,  he's much better than that. 

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12 minutes ago, Grinch said:

Correct,  cut out the retarded defending and we won't be blaming anyone anyway. 

 

Piss poor from Robertson,  he's much better than that. 

Why was it piss poor by Robertson? He gets to the ball before the attacker. I see that as good defending. With a proper referee it wouldn't even be a point for discussion. 

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