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When is Violence Justified?


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5 hours ago, skaro said:

 

Yes, I'd say humiliation might be the intent.

 

It's not physical violence, and I'm sure it wouldn't cause too much harm to a callous politician... but humiliation - as a common tactic in bullying, for example - is very arguably a form of mental violence and bullying, we can all agree, is acknowledged as contributing to things like suicides.

 

Context matters.

 

A crowd of Southern racists surrounding a small group of Civil Rights campaigners at a lunch counter in the early sixties are obviously threatening violence when they pour food and drink on them. One Asian lad in Warrington surrounded by Yaxley-Lennon's goons is threatening - or bullying  - nobody. 

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8 hours ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

I have.  Several times. 

 

Any definition of violence will tell you that there has to be  (actual or intended) physical or mental harm. Slopping a cold drink on someone doesn't fit that definition. 

My understanding is that it is classed as common assault although unlikely to lead to a prosecution more probably a caution. I've trawled around and found examples of where people have been interviewed by police for chucking wine at nightclubs. Heres an example of some reality chavvy women -

 

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/celebrity-news/helen-wood-arrested-months-after-5296902

 

 

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7 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

The milk-slopping itself doesn't cause mental anguish. Nor do the people in these recent cases have any violent intent. Generally, something that only gets you messy, but doesn’t hurt, doesn’t fit a definition of violence.  You can have a food fight for fun at a children's party; that alone should give you an idea of the level of harm and injury being done. 

 

Where are you getting this information from, do you have a source?

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36 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

Context matters.

 

A crowd of Southern racists surrounding a small group of Civil Rights campaigners at a lunch counter in the early sixties are obviously threatening violence when they pour food and drink on them. One Asian lad in Warrington surrounded by Yaxley-Lennon's goons is threatening - or bullying  - nobody. 

 

Yes, I'm in violent agreement with you about context mattering.

 

Which is why I was dismissive of what was done to the politician, and moved on to the tactic of humiliation in a broader sense, where, as a form of bullying - like the racist example you give above - pouring food and drink on to someone can feel extremely violent.

 

In other words, violence isn't necessarily just a kicking - if we move into effects on the psyche.

 

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40 minutes ago, skaro said:

 

Yes, I'm in violent agreement with you about context mattering.

 

Which is why I was dismissive of what was done to the politician, and moved on to the tactic of humiliation in a broader sense, where, as a form of bullying - like the racist example you give above - pouring food and drink on to someone can feel extremely violent.

 

In other words, violence isn't necessarily just a kicking - if we move into effects on the psyche.

 

Agreed. I think they've recently (and rightly) extended the definition of domestic violence to include psychological abuse, humiliation and controlling behaviour. 

 

When humiliation is used as a tactic, as I mentioned earlier, the important bit of context is the power relationship.  A member of the public egging, pieing or milkshaking a prominent politician can be a good thing - generally speaking, it's good for democracy if powerful people are liable to be taken down a peg ("a whole peg!") just as the tyrant Yertle was brought down by a belch - but if a prominent politician humiliates a member of the public, that's not cool.

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What's the position for pissing in an empty crisp packet and throwing it at somebody? 

 

For the record, an assault charge doesn't necessarily prove that has been inflicted upon a victim. A fear or apprehension of violence is sufficient. 

 

The drinks swilling charges may not necessarily be made out by the throwing of the drink. It may be because they caused a fear of violence because the throwing of a drink was done aggressively and the victim feared what may come next. You'd need to read judgements or be privy to the legal arguments to confirm that though. 

 

By all linguistic definitions of violence, I agree that you'd struggle to shoehorn splashing somebody with a harmless liquid into said definitions. 

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1 hour ago, A Red said:

Barton is a prick and some of his family are much worse but it doesnt mean that he is wrong in this instance

It means he has laughably low self-awareness and, given he’s under investigation for knocking someone’s teeth out by attacking them from behind, would have shown uncharacteristically good judgement had he not pontificated on the subject in that faux-intellectual way of his.

 

My post was about that alone and not the wider conversation, stuck it in here because on topic.

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2 minutes ago, Lizzie Birdsworths Wrinkled Chopper said:

It means he has laughably low self-awareness and, given he’s under investigation for knocking someone’s teeth out by attacking them from behind, would have shown uncharacteristically good judgement had he not pontificated on the subject in that faux-intellectual way of his.

 

My post was about that alone and not the wider conversation, stuck it in here because on topic.

Yep, all of that, he would do well to concentrate on his own behaviour.

 

But, he does have a point, just because he is a hypocritical knob doesnt mean he is wrong when pointing out how these things can escalate

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40 minutes ago, AngryofTuebrook said:

True.

 

The fact that he is wrong in this instance means that he is wrong in this instance. 

He is saying that things like this can escalate. You dont think they can, fair enough youre wrong in this instance

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5 minutes ago, A Red said:

He is saying that things like this can escalate. You dont think they can, fair enough youre wrong in this instance

You think throwing a milkshake is a precursor to throwing a petrol bomb? 

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8 minutes ago, A Red said:

He is saying that things like this can escalate. You dont think they can, fair enough youre wrong in this instance

Considering a pro-Brexit loon already murdered a pro-remain MP over Brexit, surely things are moving in the right direction?

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1 minute ago, Jose Jones said:

Considering a pro-Brexit loon already murdered a pro-remain MP over Brexit, surely things are moving in the right direction?

Reverse escalation, next time it will be a cup of confetti 

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But the context is everything.  A kid throwing  milkshake in a food fight at a kids party does it with the consent of the others.  A man throwing a drink at another in order to intimidate them or prevent them from expressing their views is an act of violence.   Mens rea and all that.  Just as if I spill my drink on someone the outcome is the same (someone covered in milkshake) but I have no intent.   

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