The Cold War

[Lee909]

Just finished watching Tinker Taylor soldier spy,film not the series. Need to watch that. 

 

Must say since the wall come down down the lack of good spy films, bond Villains and trips behind the curtain for the unmentionable sport really have dropped off. 

[Strontium]

Who would have guessed that 30 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, they'd have greater freedom of movement than us in the UK. 

[AngryOfTuebrook]

7 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

Who would have guessed that 30 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, they'd have greater freedom of movement than us in the UK. 

The collapse of the Soviet Union has been a boon to the Salisbury tourist industry. 

[Anny Road]

7 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

Who would have guessed that 30 years after the collapse of the Iron Curtain, they'd have greater freedom of movement than us in the UK. 

Yes just assassinations of political opponents and journalists to worry about now.

[Captain Turdseye]

I’m watching this, it’s very good. 
 

 

24 part documentary, originally aired late 1998/early ‘99. It was done by the same people who did ‘The World at War’ which is arguably the greatest documentary series ever made. There are a lot of similarities in the way it’s put together. 
 

I’ve watched fifteen of them so far. There’s been some talking heads in it I wasn’t expecting, like Robert McNamara, Henry Kissinger, Fidel Castro and, erm, Hugh Hefner.  
 

Also seen a few people interviewed that were previously nothing but names in books to me. There are some bits missing that you’d think would be covered but it’s probably about as close you can get to squeezing forty odd years of world political history into twenty four episodes, each lasting 45 minutes. 

 

[Babb'sBurstNad]

Looks good that. Just seen it's on YouTube. That's my bedtime viewing sorted.

[Section_31]

I love the idea of alternate histories and wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had prevailed instead of Stalin. He had a more internationalist view of communism and was also less of a despot and a cunt.

 

Russia's revolution meant it skipped democracy completely and went straight from a feudal society to a communist one, so it didn't have a mature civil society, court system etc.

 

It'd be fascinating to see what a non oppressive,  relatively Liberal soviet union could have accomplished. 

 

The resources at its disposal and the strengths of central planning took it from a relatively backward, agrarian society to one which was pushing the boundaries of science and space exploration in a matter of a few years. Not to mention its sheer production power.

[Captain Turdseye]

8 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

It'd be fascinating to see what a non oppressive,  relatively Liberal soviet union could have accomplished. 

Episode 14 is actually all about the Prague Spring Revolution and subsequent crackdown

[SasaS]

30 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

I love the idea of alternate histories and wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had prevailed instead of Stalin. He had a more internationalist view of communism and was also less of a despot and a cunt.

 

Russia's revolution meant it skipped democracy completely and went straight from a feudal society to a communist one, so it didn't have a mature civil society, court system etc.

 

It'd be fascinating to see what a non oppressive,  relatively Liberal soviet union could have accomplished. 

 

The resources at its disposal and the strengths of central planning took it from a relatively backward, agrarian society to one which was pushing the boundaries of science and space exploration in a matter of a few years. Not to mention its sheer production power.

 

Some say it was mostly through the brutal exploitation of "agrarian society" (as in Acemoglu&Robinson, Why Nations Fail) by the state which focused on industrialization, and less through the "strengths of central planning". Similar to China (as in SasaS, How Did China Do It). 

[Arniepie]

6 hours ago, Captain Turdseye said:

I’m watching this, it’s very good. 
 

 

24 part documentary, originally aired late 1998/early ‘99. It was done by the same people who did ‘The World at War’ which is arguably the greatest documentary series ever made. There are a lot of similarities in the way it’s put together. 
 

I’ve watched fifteen of them so far. There’s been some talking heads in it I wasn’t expecting, like Robert McNamara, Henry Kissinger, Fidel Castro and, erm, Hugh Hefner.  
 

Also seen a few people interviewed that were previously nothing but names in books to me. There are some bits missing that you’d think would be covered but it’s probably about as close you can get to squeezing forty odd years of world political history into twenty four episodes, each lasting 45 minutes. 

 

Looks boss that 

[Arniepie]

5 hours ago, Section_31 said:

I love the idea of alternate histories and wonder what would have happened if Trotsky had prevailed instead of Stalin. He had a more internationalist view of communism and was also less of a despot and a cunt.

 

Russia's revolution meant it skipped democracy completely and went straight from a feudal society to a communist one, so it didn't have a mature civil society, court system etc.

 

It'd be fascinating to see what a non oppressive,  relatively Liberal soviet union could have accomplished. 

 

The resources at its disposal and the strengths of central planning took it from a relatively backward, agrarian society to one which was pushing the boundaries of science and space exploration in a matter of a few years. Not to mention its sheer production power.

It's a dead interesting part of history,but we never even touched it in school,even at a level.

Stalin just came from nowhere didn't he?no one saw him as a threat till it was too late.

 

There is a boss film on the Ukrainian famine called Mr Jones and the lives of others which is a cracking film about East Germany in the early 80s.

 

[Section_31]

6 hours ago, Arniepie said:

It's a dead interesting part of history,but we never even touched it in school,even at a level.

Stalin just came from nowhere didn't he?no one saw him as a threat till it was too late.

 

There is a boss film on the Ukrainian famine called Mr Jones and the lives of others which is a cracking film about East Germany in the early 80s.

 

 

I don't know loads about it but have seen it written that Stalin's brutally was down in large part to knowing he wasn't as smart as many of those around him, he'd seen other undermined and killed/exiled (many by his hand) and didn't want the same to happen to him. 

[bossy]

I think the Cold War and the Soviet Union made the West relatively keen to ensure there was at least the possibility of working class people having a stake in society. Hence council housing, NHS, Trades Unions, free university education etc. Once the SU collapsed, the capitalists regarded themselves as winners so they could afford not to worry about the proletariat. 

[Section_31]

1 hour ago, bossy said:

I think the Cold War and the Soviet Union made the West relatively keen to ensure there was at least the possibility of working class people having a stake in society. Hence council housing, NHS, Trades Unions, free university education etc. Once the SU collapsed, the capitalists regarded themselves as winners so they could afford not to worry about the proletariat. 

 

I dunno, Reaganomics started while the USSR was still in decent health wasn't it? 

 

If anything, it probably made it easier to demonise left wing structures in the west such as unions, left wing academics/philosophy, and sections or the Labour Party and Democrats.

 

Left wing politics couldn't be seen to win in any guise, nor could things like public ownership I suspect.

 

It's a shame. I believe Cuba has still got one of the best health systems in the world, and its literacy rate is better than the likes of Miami. At least some of its economic hardships stem from decades of sanctions.

[bossy]

4 minutes ago, Section_31 said:

 

I dunno, Reaganomics started while the USSR was still in decent health wasn't it? 

 

If anything, it probably made it easier to demonise left wing structures in the west such as unions, left wing academics/philosophy, and sections or the Labour Party and Democrats.

 

Left wing politics couldn't be seen to win in any guise, nor could things like public ownership I suspect.

 

It's a shame. I believe Cuba has still got one of the best health systems in the world, and its literacy rate is better than the likes of Miami. At least some of its economic hardships stem from decades of sanctions.

And thatcher of course over here, but after the years of ‘Red Plenty’ Russia was starting to look like a basket case from the mid 70s. Cuba is an outlier in the West and I agree about the effect of sanctions. However, the post war ‘liberal consensus’ was a fear of socialism/communism taking hold in the UK, hence the housing, education, NHS etc. All the while propaganda chipped away at the left and eventually of course, the dismantling began in earnest in the 1980s. But I do believe fear of the Soviet Union in the 50s-70s forced the public welfare considerations. 

[Captain Turdseye]

Watched a couple more last night and they had Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter as talking heads too. I’m surprised at the calibre of guests, to be honest. 
 

Wondering who else will pop up next as the story moves into the 1980’s.

[Arniepie]

4 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I don't know loads about it but have seen it written that Stalin's brutally was down in large part to knowing he wasn't as smart as many of those around him, he'd seen other undermined and killed/exiled (many by his hand) and didn't want the same to happen to him. 

from what ive read he was extremely cunning but those around him just say him as some kind of office geek. 

I think lenin tried to warn people when he was on his way out.

that 1950's era russia with the show trials and stuff is a really interesting part of history. 

[Arniepie]

4 hours ago, bossy said:

I think the Cold War and the Soviet Union made the West relatively keen to ensure there was at least the possibility of working class people having a stake in society. Hence council housing, NHS, Trades Unions, free university education etc. Once the SU collapsed, the capitalists regarded themselves as winners so they could afford not to worry about the proletariat. 

I remember growing up in the 80s and russia was consistently portrayed as the  enemy (didnt regan call them the evil empire?)even as a clueless teenager, I was aware we were being fed this constant diet of anti soviet propaganda.

[Strontium]

Probably better than the constant diet female East German athletes were being fed.

[Gnasher]

12 hours ago, Arniepie said:

It's a dead interesting part of history,but we never even touched it in school,even at a level.

Stalin just came from nowhere didn't he?no one saw him as a threat till it was too late.

 

There is a boss film on the Ukrainian famine called Mr Jones and the lives of others which is a cracking film about East Germany in the early 80s.

 

 

The lives of others is superb. Here's a fantastic doc about Gorbachev, Russia and the end of the Cold War. 

 

He's near death and resigned to ambling around his old house but although he's understandably hesitant about certain subjects/people, Putin being a primary one his intelligence and knowledge still shine through. He's a fascinating character.

 

Storyville, not sure if still on I player but I believe its on Amazon prime.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001c1my

 

https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/gorbachev-heaven-review-the-former-soviet-leader-says-his-piece-or-doesnt-in-a-moving-insightful-doc-1234837371/

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/storyville-review-mikhail-gorbachev-rnrmf8q5n

 

 

[Arniepie]

36 minutes ago, Gnasher said:

 

The lives of others is superb. Here's a fantastic doc about Gorbachev, Russia and the end of the Cold War. 

 

He's near death and resigned to ambling around his old house but although he's understandably hesitant about certain subjects/people, Putin being a primary one his intelligence and knowledge still shine through. He's a fascinating character.

 

Storyville, not sure if still on I player but I believe its on Amazon prime.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001c1my

 

https://variety.com/2020/film/reviews/gorbachev-heaven-review-the-former-soviet-leader-says-his-piece-or-doesnt-in-a-moving-insightful-doc-1234837371/

 

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/storyville-review-mikhail-gorbachev-rnrmf8q5n

 

 

when reagan died he seemed to get a lot of credit for ending the cold war.I would have said Gorbachev did much more.

[Kepler-186]

Think Gnasher has recommended it but TraumaZone 1985-1999 is quality. Still on iPlayer.

 

 

Red Penguins: Murder, Money and Ice Hockey is good as well. A Storyville episode. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000q5hp

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Kepler-186
Added link

[VladimirIlyich]

5 hours ago, Section_31 said:

 

I dunno, Reaganomics started while the USSR was still in decent health wasn't it? 

 

If anything, it probably made it easier to demonise left wing structures in the west such as unions, left wing academics/philosophy, and sections or the Labour Party and Democrats.

 

Left wing politics couldn't be seen to win in any guise, nor could things like public ownership I suspect.

 

It's a shame. I believe Cuba has still got one of the best health systems in the world, and its literacy rate is better than the likes of Miami. At least some of its economic hardships stem from decades of sanctions.

Cuba used to take and train Russian doctors so both countries benefited from the exchange. And of course once the USA introduced sanctions against Cuba there was only ever one place they were going to turn to whether they wanted to or not.

[Gnasher]

Speaking of Gorbachev, forget the dignitaries and world leaders, this is the tribute he'd have savoured most. 

 

Timmy Mallet. The day after Gorbachevs death.

 

 

 

 

 

[Section_31]

3 hours ago, Arniepie said:

I remember growing up in the 80s and russia was consistently portrayed as the  enemy (didnt regan call them the evil empire?)even as a clueless teenager, I was aware we were being fed this constant diet of anti soviet propaganda.

 

Remember how virtually all toys for boys back in the 80s were guns? Toy soldiers and action man?

 

Hmmmm