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I think Gerrard had that attitude precisely because he was an amazing footballer. Van Dijk seems to carry that attitude now because he knows that he’s faster and stronger than most of the players he’s up against. One gripe I have with Lovren is sometimes he overestimates his own ability, especially against the grocks.. goes for every single challenge, thinking he’ll win them all.

My main gripe with Lovren is that he capitulates when he makes mistakes. Mistakes are human, we all make them but not all of us totally lose their shit when we do. Unfortunately for us Lovren seems to do that, and he seems completely unaware that he does that so he doesn't correct it. It's something that needs addressing for the average person let alone someone getting paid millions to play a sport watched by millions around the world on any given day so I do feel for him as a person, I'm sure it's not easy dealing with the constant pressure but it's also the life he's worked so hard to have. Honestly I think that's why he comes out with half of the interviews he does, he's trying to convince himself more than anything.

 

Van Dijk on the other hand seems to know he belongs at this level, so when he fucks up he gets over it and goes on to have either finish the game stronger or have a better performance the next time out.

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I always remember Arsenal getting rid of Lukic for £1m and buying Seamen for £1.3m and I didn't get it at the time thinking 'why? Lukic is good enough'. But the rest is history, if a position can be improved, even by a bit then it should be done.

 

Replace first team with players who can improve us and put the old first team on the bench and get rid of the bench warmers.  The problem in this day and age is getting rid of the ones who can't make a difference when they are needed to.

 

The trick is clearly not buying them in the first place.

 

This summer is going to be difficult and we need to buy to improve what we have and replace others;Can (off), the Ox (depending on injury), Milner (age) etc. Not going to be easy.

One of the problems with that is players aren't happy sitting on the bench unless there's a reason for it. Sure at Real Madrid or Barcelona players feel like they've "made it" so they deal with it. At City, Chelsea, and to a slightly lesser extent the scum players get paid so much that only the ones who really care about playing football are truly pissed to be bench players. We don't have the wage structure to compete with that right now, and despite that myself and I imagine the rest of us here think we're just a big of a club as Madrid or Barcelona the fact is the majority of players around the world don't feel that way, unless they're Liverpool fans themselves. That can change in the future but we need to get to back to winning things for that to happen.

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This is funny because I always get you two mixed up. It's like you're arguing with yourself.

 

I thought I was the only one who did this. Fucking hell. 

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We've had to do it so slowly though since Rodgers was sacked. People thought we would have a clear out after the UEFA Cup final but a lot of them are still here.

 

Think that the expectation was lower because people were more realistic about where we were in the food chain. Players were turning us down for Arsenal and Chelsea all the time. We didnt have a top manager and we never qualified for the Champions League. Now we are in a stronger position with a better manager and a few better players rather than just relying on Gerrard or Suarez.

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Re-read what I said about Origi. I said we need better, but we need striker options for next season.

 

He's far better than Ings, Solanke and Sturridge put together as he offers pace and power.

 

Him on the bench last night could have made a difference coming on for Mo.

Yeah i wasn't having a go as I agreed with you to be honest, but I think that says it all about the dearth in quality.

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And actually on topic, the purchases of Virgil and Keita are steps in the right direction. Problem is we need more than 1 quality addition a year.

Yep.

 

The difference between Klopp and Rodgers, Hodgeson and I'm sorry to say Kenny, is that when he spends big money it tends to be well spent.

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Yep.

The difference between Klopp and Rodgers, Hodgeson and I'm sorry to say Kenny, is that when he spends big money it tends to be well spent.

Agree with that. We haven't spent as well since Rafa pre-yanks.

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So, to regularly match a team of Real Madrid's quality, we need similar quality players, right? Nothing contentious about that, but context is all. We have just had our first back to back CL qualification since 2009. It takes time to build a squad like that. Are we closer to it than 2 or 3 years ago? Yes. Will we be there next season? Probably not. Closer still? Almost certainly.

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So, to regularly match a team of Real Madrid's quality, we need similar quality players, right? Nothing contentious about that, but context is all. We have just had our first back to back CL qualification since 2009. It takes time to build a squad like that. Are we closer to it than 2 or 3 years ago? Yes. Will we be there next season? Probably not. Closer still? Almost certainly.

Not similar quality players no, and not just to match Madrid in champions league finals. What we do need are players who are consistently good because they've got real ability to begin with.

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Just a thought. Should we do business with Madrid in the future?

 

No we should only sell to Barcelona........oh wait a minute we only do that now.

 

Seriously ive always preferred Barca to Madrid even as a kid I don't like their we are Madrid and no one can touch us attitude they have although Barca are becoming similar.

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Not similar quality players no, and not just to match Madrid in champions league finals. What we do need are players who are consistently good because they've got real ability to begin with.

 

Haven't these players been consistently good for the past two years?

 

I mean take Henderson for example. He's been at the club 6 years and been part of a team that nearly won the league, won a league cup, got to an FA Cup, another league cup, Europa league and Champions League final. He's played at a really good level in two good Liverpool teams now. He obviously has ability and the manager really likes him. 

 

I wouldn't be selling anyone we have now bar Mignolet. Just add Keita and another three players to what we have now. 

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Not similar quality players no, and not just to match Madrid in champions league finals. What we do need are players who are consistently good because they've got real ability to begin with.

 

Of course. Impossible to argue with that. It feels we are going in the right direction over the past two seasons. Mane, Salah, Robertson, Van Dijk all fit that description, I think. Keita and hopefully 2-3 others we bring in this summer will also. It gets easier to do it when regularly playing in the tournament that most consistently good players aspire to play in. We just got to the final after our first qualification in 9 years. That should help.

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Even had we won last night, it wouldn't have changed that the team is still only about 50% there. We need 2 straight into the midfield -- whether that's Keita & Fekir, or Keita and another. We absolutely need a wide forward who can get in behind (Fekir concerns with the lack of pace). We absolutely need a 'keeper. We've done incredibly well adding Salah, Van Dijk, Robertson & Chamberlain over the past 12 months: another four with the impact like those please.

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Of course. Impossible to argue with that. It feels we are going in the right direction over the past two seasons. Mane, Salah, Robertson, Van Dijk all fit that description, I think. Keita and hopefully 2-3 others we bring in this summer will also. It gets easier to do it when regularly playing in the tournament that most consistently good players aspire to play in. We just got to the final after our first qualification in 9 years. That should help.

Yeah i agree with that. When you look at some of the outrageous shit our last three managers foisted on us it's clear Klopp was starting from an exceedingly low level, not to mention the handful of decent players they did unearth or develop have either fucked off to Barcelona and city or turned into babbling idiots.

 

We've got the bare bones of a top class team now, we need good midfielders, a goalie and some decent players for the bench and it's onwards and upwards.

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Even had we won last night, it wouldn't have changed that the team is still only about 50% there. We need 2 straight into the midfield -- whether that's Keita & Fekir, or Keita and another. We absolutely need a wide forward who can get in behind (Fekir concerns with the lack of pace). We absolutely need a 'keeper. We've done incredibly well adding Salah, Van Dijk, Robertson & Chamberlain over the past 12 months: another four with the impact like those please.

I think Chamberlain was a big miss last night he gives us pace and his running power would have unsettled them 

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The concern is that we (along with Spurs) make up the English contingent of Napoli/Dortmund/Atletico diynamic (the latter two of whom albeit having won titles, but never really kicked on to what was possible having lost key players), as a top team that continually falls at the final hurdle, hamstrung by lack of resources relative to rivals. Its up to the ownership to invest & make sure that doesn't happen.

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I think Chamberlain was a big miss last night he gives us pace and his running power would have unsettled them

I think he'd have been totally outclassed too. Chamberlain is a decent player who's showed some flashes but he's not in that league.

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Haven't these players been consistently good for the past two years?

 

I mean take Henderson for example. He's been at the club 6 years and been part of a team that nearly won the league, won a league cup, got to an FA Cup, another league cup, Europa league and Champions League final. He's played at a really good level in two good Liverpool teams now. He obviously has ability and the manager really likes him.

 

I wouldn't be selling anyone we have now bar Mignolet. Just add Keita and another three players to what we have now.

You wouldn’t sell Origi, Markovic, Lallana, Matip?

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You wouldn’t sell Origi, Markovic, Lallana, Matip?

I wouldn’t sell Lallana and Matip. Should have been clearer, I wouldn’t sell anybody who has been part of the squad this season. I’m presuming the likes of Sturridge and whoever has been out on loan will go.

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I realise emotions are raw here but this is something I'm genuinely baffled about. If people don't want to discuss it feel free to exit the thread as is your right under the first amendment and GDPR regulations.

 

I think season upon season of shite signings by successive managers have lowered our standards with regards to what we expect from our footballers. People saying "I wish we could bring Origi on at least he has pace" in a European cup final against Real Madrid shows you how far standards and expectations have fallen.

 

The defence of Karius earlier in the season as "he's not as bad as Mig".

 

Also, judging players like Lovren or Henderson based on one or two showings in a match rather than over season(s) baffles me. One minute they're a villain because they spoon a clearance, next game they make a critical interception and all is forgiven.

 

I don't think players should be viewed like that. A lack of ability is a lack of ability and it can't be coached, taught or cajoled, it simply isn't there.

 

We learned this the hard way in the 90s where the situation was remarkably similar to what it is now. We had a handful of decent players who we'd pin all our hopes on, and if they were off form or injured we were absolutely fucked.

 

Beneath them were a squad of 'okay' players who could 'do a job'. You'd see someone like Steve Harkness getting tried out as a defensive mid and he'd have a good game, people would declare him a revelation and a possible solution to a weak area, next game he'd be anonymous and we'd all be crying the blues for a new defensive midfielder. You can't ask a limited player to be more than he is, it isn't fair and it doesn't work.

 

Things only started to change when Houllier and Rafa bought quality. Hyppia didn't need to be at the 'top of his game' because he was boss. Hamann didn't need to be tried in several different positions because he was boss. There were never debates to be had. Their quality was unquestionable and it showed on the big stage.

 

Players like Leillana, Henderson, Milner etc seem to engender loyalty from the fans but they are not good enough, only for squad roles at the very best. It's telling that in previous matches most of our best attacks have gone through our fullbacks (who DO look top class)

 

Lovren and Karius are blatant Achilles heels.

 

We're stronger than the start of the reason because of the emergence of Trent, Robertson, big Virg and we've got an incredible front three.

 

But the rest can go as far as I'm concerned. As can all our subs.

 

We have to not be satisfied with average players any more if things are going to change and we're going to start winning things.

While I agree in principle with what your saying and where we can be improved it's not really that clear cut is it?

 

You can't just go and buy a better players knowing they'll instantly be an improvement as it isn't an exact science or like football manager.

 

Things like attitude, technical attributes that they have shown in the past (that you hope will be maintained or improved in the future), fitness, fit to the tactical system, ability to handle pressure and ability to settle in the area all play their part.

 

The pool is far smaller than I think we would hope for and anything beyond that is generally a punt.

 

Sure spending at the top end helps to ensure the players will have most of the above but we've had plenty of expensive and not so expensive flops (morientes for example).

 

for what we can afford the competition is fierce for the kinds of players we would need. For example your obalk, Alisson and jorginhos all of whom will be linked with teams who can pay a lot more.

 

You mention that houllier and Rafa signed quality but some of their best buys weren't proven. Hyypia was rejected by lots of clubs, xabi alonso was young and could have gone either way. Arbeloa was unknown, mascherano was considered a flop in this league by many.

 

So while we all agree that we need better players and shouldn't settle who can we get with the above? Not asking you to name, names as you aren't a scout.

 

I also agree that our fans expectations have been lowered but is that really an acceptance that we can't just go and sort it right away? It's about prioritisation. For me we need better options up front and better in midfield. Sometimes that's an incremental improvement like a yossi benayoun or just depth like Erik Meijer or Jean Michel Ferri.

 

Klopp has got it right more often than not and it's pleasing to see him only spending when he deems a player worth it which is why VVD and Kieta have taken so long to get done. We do need to aim higher and we are if you look at the signings to date.

 

So we can either try and speed this up by taking a few punts and if they fail it'll be on he managers head or improve gradually as we have done as let's face it we aren't getting a billion quid to sort it. I just hope fans and klopp himself have the patience to see it through.

 

Is it a lowering of standards to say 3 finals, albeit all lost, two of which were in Europe is an improvement on the shit we've had for so long or is it an acceptance of the way football is these days where the success is generally concentrated in the hands of a few. Put it plainly I'd rather where we are than spurs who despite finishing above us recently are no where near as close to us as winning stuff.

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