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VAR Thoughts?

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The fucked up thing with the offside rule now is, that if a player in an offside position gets fouled before the ball reaches to him, he is suppose to get the foul/penalty, so they could not have said there was no pen because he is offside yesterday. What was even the conclusion ? 

 

  • a player in an offside position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence

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Regardless of VAR, football just needs a total rethink of how we 'punish' things that happen on the field - we're using 100 year old solutions to modern problems: free kicks, red cards, yellow cards, penalties. It's barely changed in a century or so whist players have got faster, bigger and - let's face it - more 'professional' (i.e. less honest).

 

Eradicating diving is impossible through VAR or retrospective bans, because it's always going to be a cost-benefit calculation to attackers. If you're in the corner of the 18 yard box, back to goal, it's in your interests to try and win the penalty because you're upgrading your situation from one where you've virtually no chance to score to one where you've got a 70/80% chance of scoring - and at absolute worst you'll get a yellow and nothing more (and probably it'll be a wave of the arms by the referee instead).

 

Take the foul by Fabinho for the Sheff Utd penalty: there's no way that the situation where the foul takes place is going to result in a free hit at goal with just the keeper to beat, but even the slightest bit of contact gives the opportunity to upgrade the chance. So remove that possibility. Start recompensing wronged teams with dead-ball situations that reflect the state of play when the foul took place instead of this all-or-nothing situation where attackers might as well hit the deck as it offers their best chance of a goalscoring opportunity.

 

But on VAR: offsides - the rule was created to stop goal hanging. Millimetres aren't massively important here, not in terms of maintaining the integrity of the rule - so for fuck's sake, do away with the fucking crayon scribbling after the event. The enforcement can't be more precise than a player's ability detect whether they're committing a foul or not: there's no way a defender knows if his heel is playing a shirtsleeve onside by 2mm, or an attacker knows he's wrongly timed his run because his shoulder is half an inch further forward than the knee of a full back 20 yards away. It just turns it into a fucking lottery. If we must check it then do a Son at Anfield check: the lino thought he was onside and he's not made an absolute howler so leave it at that. It was a farce at the King Power there. Lino thinks it's off, and the replay is played 400 times with lines drawn and it's still no clearer, so accept a degree of uncertainty and leave the decision with the guy in the stadium.

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1 hour ago, Manny said:

Regardless of VAR, football just needs a total rethink of how we 'punish' things that happen on the field - we're using 100 year old solutions to modern problems: free kicks, red cards, yellow cards, penalties. It's barely changed in a century or so whist players have got faster, bigger and - let's face it - more 'professional' (i.e. less honest).

 

Eradicating diving is impossible through VAR or retrospective bans, because it's always going to be a cost-benefit calculation to attackers. If you're in the corner of the 18 yard box, back to goal, it's in your interests to try and win the penalty because you're upgrading your situation from one where you've virtually no chance to score to one where you've got a 70/80% chance of scoring - and at absolute worst you'll get a yellow and nothing more (and probably it'll be a wave of the arms by the referee instead).

 

Take the foul by Fabinho for the Sheff Utd penalty: there's no way that the situation where the foul takes place is going to result in a free hit at goal with just the keeper to beat, but even the slightest bit of contact gives the opportunity to upgrade the chance. So remove that possibility. Start recompensing wronged teams with dead-ball situations that reflect the state of play when the foul took place instead of this all-or-nothing situation where attackers might as well hit the deck as it offers their best chance of a goalscoring opportunity.

 

But on VAR: offsides - the rule was created to stop goal hanging. Millimetres aren't massively important here, not in terms of maintaining the integrity of the rule - so for fuck's sake, do away with the fucking crayon scribbling after the event. The enforcement can't be more precise than a player's ability detect whether they're committing a foul or not: there's no way a defender knows if his heel is playing a shirtsleeve onside by 2mm, or an attacker knows he's wrongly timed his run because his shoulder is half an inch further forward than the knee of a full back 20 yards away. It just turns it into a fucking lottery. If we must check it then do a Son at Anfield check: the lino thought he was onside and he's not made an absolute howler so leave it at that. It was a farce at the King Power there. Lino thinks it's off, and the replay is played 400 times with lines drawn and it's still no clearer, so accept a degree of uncertainty and leave the decision with the guy in the stadium.

Good points, I agree with all of this, the game has evolved into something else entirely so the rules need modernisation. 

 

What would you have in mind for something like the Fabinho penalty scenario? Indirect free kick from where the foul was commited? Only the players that were inside the box at the time are allowed to defend the free kick? It's a fine balance between having the dead ball reflect the state of play and making it too complicated. 

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I had thought that using standing feet only for offside calls could help simplify the issue, but then the clowns go and use a fucking shadow of a foot!

 

Also, the fact they can get it so badly wrong highlights how insufficient the quality of the frames are for determining decisions within a millimetre. 

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16 minutes ago, Aventus said:

Good points, I agree with all of this, the game has evolved into something else entirely so the rules need modernisation. 

 

What would you have in mind for something like the Fabinho penalty scenario? Indirect free kick from where the foul was commited? Only the players that were inside the box at the time are allowed to defend the free kick? It's a fine balance between having the dead ball reflect the state of play and making it too complicated. 

We can't be counting players and who/where they are. With that and VAR a match will take longer than that NFL shite. The only viable option I could see is a direct free kick with no defenders goal side of the ball taken from where the foul is committed. 

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2 hours ago, Funkasy said:

The fucked up thing with the offside rule now is, that if a player in an offside position gets fouled before the ball reaches to him, he is suppose to get the foul/penalty, so they could not have said there was no pen because he is offside yesterday. What was even the conclusion ? 

 

  • a player in an offside position is moving towards the ball with the intention of playing the ball and is fouled before playing or attempting to play the ball, or challenging an opponent for the ball, the foul is penalised as it has occurred before the offside offence


So, We should have got a pen in the Derby for the foul on Virg? Same scenario? Thought they couldn’t give the pen because he was off and they didn’t know the rules that they could still send little arms off? 

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1 hour ago, Pete said:

It’s fucking shit. Or should I say it’s run by fucking shitheads.

 

That has always been my issue with it. They use it in a stupid way (slo-mo exaggerating everything for example) and look for stupid stuff (offsides to the degree of a gnat's pube, using body parts that you can't score a goal with anyway) leading to the sort of stupidity we saw at Goodison. 

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VAR is clearly shit, as a result of the incompetence of those using it.

 

I know others have mentioned it but what makes VAR even worse is the fact the change rules or approaches seemingly at random, without anyone knowing. You had the situation with handball earlier in the season.

 

I was just reading the ref watch column on Sky Sports then and Dermot Gallagher was talking about tackles that happen outside the area, where part of the body is inside. He was talking about how earlier in the season you could get a penalty even if the tackle/foul was outside the area, however, they have now changed it again, to go by where the foul occurred. 

 

I might have missed it but i dont remember this ever being discussed. Its quite a big change, changing penalties to free kicks, or, earlier in the season giving pens that should be free kicks. The fact he mentioned this without any issue in his column, baffled me. These things are changing results and then they just decide to change approach. Did anyone have to justify why they were giving pens earlier and why now they have decided to go with free kicks? Who carries the can for these decisions that impact results?

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I was in favour of VAR coming in, and I still think it’s a good system.

However, the way it is being used and interpreted by the officials in charge of our fixtures is rendering it almost useless.

It’s like giving the controls of a Rolls Royce to a chimp.

It’s possible there’ll be more than a few from inside the game pushing for a complete overhaul or complete scrapping of the system.

Don’t think it’ll happen though.

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1 hour ago, liverpoolsno9 said:


So, We should have got a pen in the Derby for the foul on Virg? Same scenario? Thought they couldn’t give the pen because he was off and they didn’t know the rules that they could still send little arms off? 

Did VVD actually get to the ball and was then clobbered by little arms? 

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2 minutes ago, Frank Dacey said:

Ex-ref Keith Hackett has suggested limiting offside to the 22 yard line.

 

They'd have to mark out a white line on the pitch as they do with all the other pitch markings.

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3 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Did VVD actually get to the ball and was then clobbered by little arms? 

 

Virg got a shot/cross away.

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4 hours ago, Manny said:

Regardless of VAR, football just needs a total rethink of how we 'punish' things that happen on the field - we're using 100 year old solutions to modern problems: free kicks, red cards, yellow cards, penalties. It's barely changed in a century or so whist players have got faster, bigger and - let's face it - more 'professional' (i.e. less honest).

 

Eradicating diving is impossible through VAR or retrospective bans, because it's always going to be a cost-benefit calculation to attackers. If you're in the corner of the 18 yard box, back to goal, it's in your interests to try and win the penalty because you're upgrading your situation from one where you've virtually no chance to score to one where you've got a 70/80% chance of scoring - and at absolute worst you'll get a yellow and nothing more (and probably it'll be a wave of the arms by the referee instead).

 

Take the foul by Fabinho for the Sheff Utd penalty: there's no way that the situation where the foul takes place is going to result in a free hit at goal with just the keeper to beat, but even the slightest bit of contact gives the opportunity to upgrade the chance. So remove that possibility. Start recompensing wronged teams with dead-ball situations that reflect the state of play when the foul took place instead of this all-or-nothing situation where attackers might as well hit the deck as it offers their best chance of a goalscoring opportunity.

 

But on VAR: offsides - the rule was created to stop goal hanging. Millimetres aren't massively important here, not in terms of maintaining the integrity of the rule - so for fuck's sake, do away with the fucking crayon scribbling after the event. The enforcement can't be more precise than a player's ability detect whether they're committing a foul or not: there's no way a defender knows if his heel is playing a shirtsleeve onside by 2mm, or an attacker knows he's wrongly timed his run because his shoulder is half an inch further forward than the knee of a full back 20 yards away. It just turns it into a fucking lottery. If we must check it then do a Son at Anfield check: the lino thought he was onside and he's not made an absolute howler so leave it at that. It was a farce at the King Power there. Lino thinks it's off, and the replay is played 400 times with lines drawn and it's still no clearer, so accept a degree of uncertainty and leave the decision with the guy in the stadium.

You're dead right about the penalty scenario. The hardest thing to do in football is score a goal but with VAR  they have made it relatively easy. I'm not sure you're offering much in the way of solutions though, looks like a bigger mess to me.

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7 minutes ago, Trumo said:

 

They'd have to mark out a white line on the pitch as they do with all the other pitch markings.

I'm actualy in favour of every player being offside if they're in an offside position in the box (or within the 18 yard line), so there's no confusion over who is or isn't in play (and would make a robot decision easier as it is not subjective). Hackets way suggests goalhanging could be back. 

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The penalty was not the reason we lost...but a comment on the VAR.

 

That was a token effort at looking at the screen today, by the on-field chimp. Very strange.

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It's one of those things that could be implemented quite well and therefore help evolve the games but because of the sheer unwillingness of those making decisions to use it honestly it's better off being thrown out, and I think that's been the plan the whole time in the Premier League.

The issue they'll have with that argument is other leagues and the top European Competition implementing it without much of a fuss.

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