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VAR Thoughts?


Lee909
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52 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

Have a line exactly the same width as the lines on the pitch and just like them,touching the line is legitimate under the laws of the game but going over it isnt. And what happened to 'only a body part which can legally score a goal can be deemed offside?' That seemed sensible but didnt last long.

Honestly all that does is make the offside by a pixel change the place the pixel is.

 

offside has been a subjective call for its entirety of existence and while there were plenty of wrong decisions in that time, the amount of wrong decisions hadn’t really changed with trying to make it objective, it just now takes longer to get those bad decisions.

 

keep it subjective, accept that sometimes you’ll feel aggrieved, because subjective options won’t always match your own, and simply look at it and decide “does that look offside”.

 

I know immediately looking at those 3 images Scott shared (and the line helps to be sure) that all 3 are onside. I don’t need anything more than my eyes, and the guideline to know what is straight (like how lines cut in grass often aid you).

 

if you apply that to our last match, Salah is quickly confirmed as onside most likely but maybe not as it’s close and subjective, and mane is quickly rules out.

 

hendos goal rightly stands, as does bamfords, as does the one wolves scored against us last year when someone threw passes earlier was offside by a heel under the current system. 
 

sterling’s disc allowed goal based city under Rodgers is allowed, etc.

 

it’s not hard, what’s making it hard is trying to apply an absolute and relying on morons to implement that absolute.

 

keep it simple, keep it as a subjective judgement call by an official, and keep it quick to confirm or overturn and any controversy which arises (which there will always be as long as people pay to watch the game and want to listen to people talk about it) will subside much quicker than this nonsense.

 

I go back to the NFL a lot when thinking about the use of technology. They keep making changes which they think are for the better and often they’re not. In the last couple of years they've moved back away from trying to ref things through video and now the balance seems better to me. They sometimes have to look at things for too long, but a principle remains that they have to see strong evidence to change a decision. 

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It’s absolutely fucking toxic. Only football could shoot itself in the foot to this degree. They have completely comprised the enjoyment and beauty of the game.

 

The sheer arrogance of the position they’ve dug themselves into that offside is “a matter of fact” that there’s cunt hairs been adjudged offside. You look at Salah’s goal on first viewing and for all the world it’s onside, then out of nowhere some faceless prick in a van starts drawing a random fucking line and all that brilliant piece of play, that emotional release from everyone is just lost. It’s a fucking disgrac.

 

Can’t get rid of it soon enough.

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2 hours ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Honestly all that does is make the offside by a pixel change the place the pixel is.

 

offside has been a subjective call for its entirety of existence and while there were plenty of wrong decisions in that time, the amount of wrong decisions hadn’t really changed with trying to make it objective, it just now takes longer to get those bad decisions.

 

keep it subjective, accept that sometimes you’ll feel aggrieved, because subjective options won’t always match your own, and simply look at it and decide “does that look offside”.

 

I know immediately looking at those 3 images Scott shared (and the line helps to be sure) that all 3 are onside. I don’t need anything more than my eyes, and the guideline to know what is straight (like how lines cut in grass often aid you).

 

if you apply that to our last match, Salah is quickly confirmed as onside most likely but maybe not as it’s close and subjective, and mane is quickly rules out.

 

hendos goal rightly stands, as does bamfords, as does the one wolves scored against us last year when someone threw passes earlier was offside by a heel under the current system. 
 

sterling’s disc allowed goal based city under Rodgers is allowed, etc.

 

it’s not hard, what’s making it hard is trying to apply an absolute and relying on morons to implement that absolute.

 

keep it simple, keep it as a subjective judgement call by an official, and keep it quick to confirm or overturn and any controversy which arises (which there will always be as long as people pay to watch the game and want to listen to people talk about it) will subside much quicker than this nonsense.

 

I go back to the NFL a lot when thinking about the use of technology. They keep making changes which they think are for the better and often they’re not. In the last couple of years they've moved back away from trying to ref things through video and now the balance seems better to me. They sometimes have to look at things for too long, but a principle remains that they have to see strong evidence to change a decision. 

The absolute worst thing is if any of those goals were given nobody blinks an eyelid, even the most rabid Everton fans would have accepted Manè's goal and moved on.

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3 minutes ago, No2 said:

The absolute worst thing is if any of those goals were given nobody blinks an eyelid, even the most rabid Everton fans would have accepted Manè's goal and moved on.

Exactly. And if they want cover for a few close decisions they just stick to the principle that the attacker gets the benefit of any doubt. 

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6 minutes ago, No2 said:

The absolute worst thing is if any of those goals were given nobody blinks an eyelid, even the most rabid Everton fans would have accepted Manè's goal and moved on.

Haha are you sure????? This is a fanbase that creates fake stories to get outraged about. 

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10 minutes ago, No2 said:

The absolute worst thing is if any of those goals were given nobody blinks an eyelid, even the most rabid Everton fans would have accepted Manè's goal and moved on.

Wasn't even Mane's goal - was Henderson's and nobody, nobody would have been shouting for an offside in build up that ridiculously marginal.

 

It's beyond farce now.

 

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VAR is killing the game and I can’t believe the football authorities are going to let it continue in its current form. When you can’t even celebrate a goal now for fear of it getting reviewed and ruled out then something is seriously wrong. It entirely sucks all the joy out of watching the game. Football had a brilliant television product and now it seems intent on wrecking it. 
 

Are there viewers that genuinely enjoy the “drama” of VAR getting involved? I’m seeing fewer proper goals, more penalties and, even before COVID, more muted celebrations from the players. It’s fucking shite. 
 


 

 

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1 minute ago, Crazy Dave said:

VAR is killing the game and I can’t believe the football authorities are going to let it continue in its current form. When you can’t even celebrate a goal now for fear of it getting reviewed and ruled out then something is seriously wrong. It entirely sucks all the joy out of watching the game. Football had a brilliant television product and now it seems intent on wrecking it. 
 

Are there viewers that genuinely enjoy the “drama” of VAR getting involved? I’m seeing fewer proper goals, more penalties and, even before COVID, more muted celebrations from the players. It’s fucking shite. 
 


 

 

here's the thing with the "drama" we tend not to get any of it. we don't see what the var is looking at. we don't hear the conversation between ref and var. the commentators clearly do get to see what we can't, because they often give it away. they haven't even made that work. as i said yesterday, it's made football a little like following on the minute by minute update on the web. 

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I don’t want the drama you allude to honestly, but if hearing them means they have to be more accountable then we should hear it.

 

the lack of accountability for officials has bugged me for a long, long time. They never have to admit they got it wrong or justify a decision.

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I think VAR would be a great concept if instead of super slow mo replays and lines drawn on screens etc that the decisions were only reviewed in real time speed (the speed that the refs and linos have in the pitch) and judged entirely like that. The benefit being that the extra camera angles available would be able to give a view that the refs and linos don’t have on the pitch either by distance or obstructions and also an ‘extra look’ to make sure. 
 

id still honestly rather have no VAR but a bit of extra help and a safety net for say a ref giving a decision influenced by a noisy crowd or say not giving a pen due to a players reputation could, I believe, be easily resolved by the above suggestion.  
 

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27 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I don’t want the drama you allude to honestly, but if hearing them means they have to be more accountable then we should hear it.

 

the lack of accountability for officials has bugged me for a long, long time. They never have to admit they got it wrong or justify a decision.


I’d love to have heard the conversations between the officials on Saturday or just the thought process in general.

 

In real time, that never looks loose a penalty against Robbo. Slow it down and Welcrap gets to the ball first, Robbo gets none of the ball and catches Welcrap.

 

Surely that’s the definition of a penalty, so that’s clear and obvious? 
 

Watch in real-time and it’s never a penalty, no Brighton players appeal & Welcrap barely goes down.

 

So, is it clear and obvious because ultra slow mo says it is, which if it has to go to ultra slow mo, completely isn’t clear and obvious.


The most frustrating think about VAR is it’s easily fixable. Apply the Dutch offside model (which I’m sure isn’t difficult) and stop reviewing things in slow-mo.

 

If they wanted to fix it, they could fix it by the weekend. But they won’t. The snivelling little virgins. 

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Did anybody see Ref Watch today? 
 

Watch excuse did he come up with to agree with the decision? I can see the conversation now.

 

Gallagher “By the letter of the law it’s a penalty”.

 

Sky Guest / Presenter “Surely that degree of slow mo isn’t clear and obvious”.

 

Gallagher “By the letter of the law it’s a penalty”.

 

And that’ll go on for 30 mins.

 

Thanks Dermot. When are REM reforming?

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11 minutes ago, Scott_M said:


I’d love to have heard the conversations between the officials on Saturday or just the thought process in general.

 

I can fill you in if you want, first one is we applied the lines and he's off. Same with the 2nd one. The penalty would have been you missed that mate, on the replay we can see Robertson missed the ball and caught the player, come and have a look for yourself. 

 

It would add intrigue for about 2 weeks. 

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2 minutes ago, No2 said:

I can fill you in if you want, first one is we applied the lines and he's off. Same with the 2nd one. The penalty would have been you missed that mate, on the replay we can see Robertson missed the ball and caught the player, come and have a look for yourself. 

 

It would add intrigue for about 2 weeks. 


Probably but that would highlight if the decision making process is flawed.
 

I’m thinking of it like Cricket or Rugby. They are miked up and you can clearly hear the way the off field ref methodically breaks down any offence for review. 
 

Compare that to Spurs penalty at Anfield the other season that TV picked on. “Did Martin see anything? I dunno, I’m giving it”. 

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38 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

I don’t want the drama you allude to honestly, but if hearing them means they have to be more accountable then we should hear it.

 

the lack of accountability for officials has bugged me for a long, long time. They never have to admit they got it wrong or justify a decision.

I agree, I don't want that drama. I want the drama to be on the pitch. But as you say it would at least make it accountable.

 

Apparently carragher has reported the var told the ref for the pen "that's a pen, you might want to take a look at it".  Yet Riley and IFAB are telling us the objective of the VAR is in the name, he's an assistant and absolutely should not be re-referreing the match. But surely telling the ref "that's a pen" does exactly that? Surely he should just be saying "there is some contact, you might prefer a 2nd look"? 

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5 hours ago, Barrington Womble said:

I've been saying since we played wba in an fa cup game at anfield when it was being trialled that I didn't like it. Those supporters had an awful season that year and winning away at anfield should have been a joy, but VAR ruined it. It's not this week's result, go through this thread and I've been saying it's destroying the game since the outset. And I will stop watching football. In fact I already have. I watched our game alone this weekend and I could be barely arsed with that. In the past even if I didn't get time to sit down and watch a game properly, I would have the football in the background all weekend. Now I just can't be arsed to turn it on, as I've stopped caring because the game just isn't the same. The fact it doesn't impact your enjoyment, as I said earlier, I feel sorry for you, because you can't have been enjoying the game like I know it can be enjoyed. It sounds to me you enjoy football like I see lots of Americans in bars when I'm there with their sports or how I am with cricket. I love cricket as a sport, but ultimately it doesn't come within a million miles of the emotion football brings out in me. 

 

I enjoyed football before VAR, and I still enjoy it, because despite there being no fans at games and the Premier League completely dropping the ball in its usage of VAR, I actually like the sport itself. And so I enjoy watching it no matter what, so you don't have to feel sorry for me. Also, your comment about Americans and their enjoyment of their sports is quite dismissive and arrogant.

 

What I'll say is this, I think there are many rules in football which are quite subjective in nature, which is a gift and a curse. On one hand, the dubiousness of penalty decisions and offsides have added to its drama because these decisions and the rules associated to them are opinion-driven. They aren't black or white and that adds to the "rawness" of football, if you will. The curse though, is that VAR has exposed just how stupid these rules have been because now that you have a system which the authorities use to make the "right" decisions, we've found out you can't make "right" decision about gray events, such as penalty and offside decisions.

 

Because of that, video replay seems to have been a poor fit for football. So yes, it feels like the authorities are doing too much and it's taking away from the spirit of what football is supposed to be. But you also have to acknowledge that offsides and penalties, as the rules are currently constituted, make no sense anyway, they've never made any sense, and are kind of the dumbest parts of football. And so most of the time, I feel like VAR has only continued the legacy of football's stupidity, but just in a different way.

 

That's why I'm not that mad at the Salah and Welbeck decisions, because to the naked eye, you could easily interpret Salah being offside, and you can easily interpret that Welbeck earned a penalty, because they're at their core, subjective decisions. VAR is just a replay apparatus. Where it gets stupid, is the line drawing. I'll fully admit that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Even dumber than the actual offside rule.

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I've always approved tv companies broadcasting the refs audio. This would almost instantly stop any level of dissent from players and give us an idea of how that referee thinks. It would be then far easier to see if that referee was applying different standards or in fact the wrong ones to situations and teams. 

 

So it will never happen. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Scott_M said:

Did anybody see Ref Watch today? 
 

Watch excuse did he come up with to agree with the decision? I can see the conversation now.

 

Gallagher “By the letter of the law it’s a penalty”.

 

Sky Guest / Presenter “Surely that degree of slow mo isn’t clear and obvious”.

 

Gallagher “By the letter of the law it’s a penalty”.

 

And that’ll go on for 30 mins.

 

Thanks Dermot. When are REM reforming?

Well they now seem to be redefining "clear and obvious".  Previously the understanding was that the on pitch referee had made a clear and obvious error in real time; now it appears to be the case that VAR can find a clear and obvious infringement (as a result of multiple camera angles and slow motion) and suggest the referee overturns the on pitch decision.  Which surely is the very definition of re-refereeing which is what they were previously saying was 100% not the purpose of VAR.

They couldn't have fucked it up any more than they have.  And Gallagher stated just this morning that it's getting better.  They are either on another planet or their main concern is to make referees the big news raising their profiles and egos. 

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20 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I enjoyed football before VAR, and I still enjoy it, because despite there being no fans at games and the Premier League completely dropping the ball in its usage of VAR, I actually like the sport itself. And so I enjoy watching it no matter what, so you don't have to feel sorry for me. Also, your comment about Americans and their enjoyment of their sports is quite dismissive and arrogant.

 

What I'll say is this, I think there are many rules in football which are quite subjective in nature, which is a gift and a curse. On one hand, the dubiousness of penalty decisions and offsides have added to its drama because these decisions and the rules associated to them are opinion-driven. They aren't black or white and that adds to the "rawness" of football, if you will. The curse though, is that VAR has exposed just how stupid these rules have been because now that you have a system which the authorities use to make the "right" decisions, we've found out you can't make "right" decision about gray events, such as penalty and offside decisions.

 

Because of that, video replay seems to have been a poor fit for football. So yes, it feels like the authorities are doing too much and it's taking away from the spirit of what football is supposed to be. But you also have to acknowledge that offsides and penalties, as the rules are currently constituted make no sense anyway, they've never made any sense, and are kind of the dumbest parts of football. And so most of the time, I feel like VAR has only continued the legacy of football's stupidity, but just in a different way.

 

That's why I'm not that mad at the Salah and Welbeck decisions, because to the naked eye, you could easily interpret Salah being offside, and you can easily interpret that Welbeck earned a penalty, because they're at their core, subjective decisions. VAR is just a replay apparatus. Where it gets stupid, is the line drawing. I'll fully admit that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Even dumber than the actual offside rule.

So I think your 1st paragraph sums it all up to me. I enjoy cricket. I enjoy boxing. I used to enjoy F1 (that's a long time back now). I can watch football, hockey and baseball when I spend periods in the states (which for business I've been doing for 20 years). But I've never loved any of those sports and been passionate about it. I've never been so emotionally attached to those sports they that a defeat can ruin a day. The reason football is the global sport is because it's an emotional game and in the main is lived in very small moments. For me (and reading this thread quite a few others) that part of the game has been taken away and the sport with VAR is no longer that sport. 

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28 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

I enjoyed football before VAR, and I still enjoy it, because despite there being no fans at games and the Premier League completely dropping the ball in its usage of VAR, I actually like the sport itself. And so I enjoy watching it no matter what, so you don't have to feel sorry for me. Also, your comment about Americans and their enjoyment of their sports is quite dismissive and arrogant.

 

What I'll say is this, I think there are many rules in football which are quite subjective in nature, which is a gift and a curse. On one hand, the dubiousness of penalty decisions and offsides have added to its drama because these decisions and the rules associated to them are opinion-driven. They aren't black or white and that adds to the "rawness" of football, if you will. The curse though, is that VAR has exposed just how stupid these rules have been because now that you have a system which the authorities use to make the "right" decisions, we've found out you can't make "right" decision about gray events, such as penalty and offside decisions.

 

Because of that, video replay seems to have been a poor fit for football. So yes, it feels like the authorities are doing too much and it's taking away from the spirit of what football is supposed to be. But you also have to acknowledge that offsides and penalties, as the rules are currently constituted, make no sense anyway, they've never made any sense, and are kind of the dumbest parts of football. And so most of the time, I feel like VAR has only continued the legacy of football's stupidity, but just in a different way.

 

That's why I'm not that mad at the Salah and Welbeck decisions, because to the naked eye, you could easily interpret Salah being offside, and you can easily interpret that Welbeck earned a penalty, because they're at their core, subjective decisions. VAR is just a replay apparatus. Where it gets stupid, is the line drawing. I'll fully admit that is the dumbest thing I've ever seen. Even dumber than the actual offside rule.

Rules are stupid simply because the interpretation of them is subjective.

 

admittedly they’ve tried hard to make the offside rule stupid with the inclusion of arms and such like, but at its core, if you’re beyond the last man you’re offside, that’s a perfectly fine rule. It being interpreted subjectively is also fine, as it has to be ruled by a person so can only ever be based on what they think they saw.

 

sometimes they get it wrong and when it’s clearly wrong having the ability to see it’s clearly wrong and correct it SHOULD be a positive for everyone.

 

but if a trained official can’t look at a single tv replay and say “yep, that’s offside” it shouldn’t be called back.

 

it’s not showing up the rules, it’s showing up how shit the officials are at understanding what’s important.

 

I was wondering last week; is there any fan group or player representation in any of the development of these shit VAR rules and implementations? If there’s not, there’s a big part of the problem.

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9 minutes ago, Bob Spunkmouse said:

Rules are stupid simply because the interpretation of them is subjective.

 

admittedly they’ve tried hard to make the offside rule stupid with the inclusion of arms and such like, but at its core, if you’re beyond the last man you’re offside, that’s a perfectly fine rule. It being interpreted subjectively is also fine, as it has to be ruled by a person so can only ever be based on what they think they saw.

 

sometimes they get it wrong and when it’s clearly wrong having the ability to see it’s clearly wrong and correct it SHOULD be a positive for everyone.

 

but if a trained official can’t look at a single tv replay and say “yep, that’s offside” it shouldn’t be called back.

 

it’s not showing up the rules, it’s showing up how shit the officials are at understanding what’s important.

 

I was wondering last week; is there any fan group or player representation in any of the development of these shit VAR rules and implementations? If there’s not, there’s a big part of the problem.

The main problem with VAR in England is they were supposed to operate under the "clear and obvious" assumption for overturning a call, which when you draw lines to find an attacker is offside by a millimetre, it's the furthest thing from operating that principle. There are faults with VAR, but that's the Premier League's fault, not VAR.

 

As you like the NFL, one thing they do that makes sense is this "clear and obvious" philosophy when they're reviewing whether the ball crosses the plane on touchdowns. If the ref calls a touchdown, and the camera angles are inconclusive to prove otherwise, the touchdown stands. How the Premier League has decided to micromanage these offside decisions is unbelievable. It's so braindead. That's the worst part of this whole thing. But it's also a rule problem now, because they've decided the shirt sleeve now makes a player offside, so now they have to zoom in on fabric and shit. It's just crazy.

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14 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

So I think your 1st paragraph sums it all up to me. I enjoy cricket. I enjoy boxing. I used to enjoy F1 (that's a long time back now). I can watch football, hockey and baseball when I spend periods in the states (which for business I've been doing for 20 years). But I've never loved any of those sports and been passionate about it. I've never been so emotionally attached to those sports they that a defeat can ruin a day. The reason football is the global sport is because it's an emotional game and in the main is lived in very small moments. For me (and reading this thread quite a few others) that part of the game has been taken away and the sport with VAR is no longer that sport. 

I get this entirely, though it’s not unique to football. You have a passion for the sport that takes you in, or you don’t. Often that’s from childhood.

 

i know people who celebrate an england rugby try as much as I celebrate a goal, and you only have to look in the stands at an F1 race to see there are some who are just as passionate about that.

 

it’s not unique to football, but it does feel like the rules are being made by and for the majority that don’t have that same level of passion, honestly.

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11 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

The main problem with VAR in England is they were supposed to operate under the "clear and obvious" assumption for overturning a call, which when you draw lines to find an attacker is offside by a millimetre, it's the furthest thing from operating that principle. There are faults with VAR, but that's the Premier League's fault, not VAR.

 

As you like the NFL, one thing they do that makes sense is this "clear and obvious" philosophy when they're reviewing whether the ball crosses the plane on touchdowns. If the ref calls a touchdown, and the camera angles are inconclusive to prove otherwise, the touchdown stands. How the Premier League has decided to micromanage these offside decisions is unbelievable. It's so braindead. That's the worst part of this whole thing. But it's also a rule problem now, because they've decided the shirt sleeve now makes a player offside, so now they have to zoom in on fabric and shit. It's just crazy.

I don’t believe clear and obvious was ever in play for offsides was it? They decided they had the technology to be absolute and so clear and obvious wasn’t required.

 

what’s been proven (to me at least) is that either they don’t have the technology (I.e frame rates, human error in drawing a line etc) to be as absolute as they want it to be, or the rule is simply not appropriate to be officiated to the absolute (and the benefit of being level is a much bigger part of the application of rule than they ever accounted for), or both.

 

as far as I know, of sports I watch with any level of interest, the only times absolutes work is when there is no human involvement and technology alone can do the job.

 

line calls in tennis... data from the camera interpreted by software...

 

goals/no goals in football... again data from a camera interpreted by software (villa vs sheff utd aside)... 

 

lbw calls in cricket... data from the camera, interpreted by software and then computational modelling of predicted following movement of the ball.

 

common denominator is no human interaction.

 

one of those has a margin of error applied because of the prediction element and because that’s what the lawmakers feel is fairer and in line with “the spirit” of the game.

 

we’ve had 2 goal line calls not go for us which were each a few millimetres from being a goal. People accept those (albeit disappointingly) because there’s an absolute element and no human interpretation or subjectivity.

 

intil and unless technology advances to the point that an offside line doesn’t need a human to interpret the data (I don’t see how that’s possible but I’m sure computers will overcome the challenge in time) then it will remain a subjective call and should be officiated as such. And as such, an element of doubt must remain and either a margin of error or a subjective judgement must be included.

 

without it, it’s doomed to always fail at least as often as not having it at all ever did.

 

most officials got most offside decisions right before all this. Let’s remember that.

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