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VAR Thoughts?

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15 minutes ago, Butch said:

 

The lines they are using don't make any sense. Looks like they can manipulate them at will depending on what team they support. 

Screenshot_20201025-092159_Samsung Internet.jpg

If the cunts in the middle can cover their arses with the clear and obvious clause, why does it not apply to the linesmen too? 

 

I used to be a proponent of VAR but this is just magnifying the corruption at the core of PGMOL. 

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We all learn from making mistakes, if you never make a mistake you never learn. 

As it is the same people in both places their immediate instinct is to defend their profession/mates, therefore they never learn. Better to have the controversy and fans snipping at each other than be shown up at being poor at your jobs. Their priorities are to prove themselves right not to improve the game, that is the problem. 

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The fixation, mainly of the media, on VAR and the latest round of refereeing howlers always ignores the more fundamental problem i.e. that the current bunch of referees are by far the worst I can remember, lacking both competence and integrity (I say this as an arl arse who first stepped foot in Anfield over 50 years ago). They're not helped by the dullards whose constant tweaking of the rules hinders rather than helps, or the players themselves who collectively are a bunch of horrendous cheats.

 

The challenge that should be getting debated throughout the football establishment and the media is how to improve the standards of refereeing, how to attract more capable people into the role so that we end up with more Mark Clattenbergs and fewer David Cootes. Part of the problem is that the worse they are, the more stick they get and the less attractive the job becomes. And they don't help themselves by hiding behind hair-splitting of the rules and failing to own up to mistakes. 

 

I still believe in VAR. The issue is in the main with the users, not the technology. If we're talking about tweaking it - it's not going to be ditched just yet - I'd make the ruling on offisde to say that if the two lines reflecting the positions of forward vs last defender are touching then it's too tight to call and therefore level. 

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The question of offside should be a technical question like whether the whole of the ball has gone over the goal line or not. You don't need to be a referee to draw straight lines on a computer image and as it looks like they can't do it competently maybe somebody with the right skills should be doing it. 

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Until the day when you can have sensors on the boots and go by where the feet are when the ball is kicked we should get rid of the technology. It’s beyond shit and a complete waste of time.

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35 minutes ago, DaveT said:

The fixation, mainly of the media, on VAR and the latest round of refereeing howlers always ignores the more fundamental problem i.e. that the current bunch of referees are by far the worst I can remember, lacking both competence and integrity (I say this as an arl arse who first stepped foot in Anfield over 50 years ago). They're not helped by the dullards whose constant tweaking of the rules hinders rather than helps, or the players themselves who collectively are a bunch of horrendous cheats.

 

The challenge that should be getting debated throughout the football establishment and the media is how to improve the standards of refereeing, how to attract more capable people into the role so that we end up with more Mark Clattenbergs and fewer David Cootes. Part of the problem is that the worse they are, the more stick they get and the less attractive the job becomes. And they don't help themselves by hiding behind hair-splitting of the rules and failing to own up to mistakes. 

 

I still believe in VAR. The issue is in the main with the users, not the technology. If we're talking about tweaking it - it's not going to be ditched just yet - I'd make the ruling on offisde to say that if the two lines reflecting the positions of forward vs last defender are touching then it's too tight to call and therefore level. 

 

Good points and I agree with you. Most of the refs today make David Elleray look exemplorary. The thing is, you can have shit refs like coote reffing these games if you have better refs overseeing them with VAR.

 

The problem is, Riley, head of PGMOL, has never wanted VAR and the refs who do VAR are on a round robin rota. So, a shit ref in a PL game could well be doing VAR in the next. Shit stays shit and still gives shit decisions. It never changes until it gets flushed away with all the other turds around it.

 

Are other league having as many bad VAR calls in Spain, Italy, Germany and France etc? It's always fucking England.

 

People point out the cameras for VAR are not HD and only do 50 frames a second or something. They say if VAR used HD cameras, it might have shown Sadio wasnt 'offside' for Hendo's winner at the pit. Dream on, they'd just use the HD picture to show it was still offside just in finer detail.

 

The IFAB, FIFA whoever OK'd VAR really should have foreseen this shitstorm of armpits, stitching on boots etc would be used to the millimeter to determine offside.

 

Was reading a piece a few weeks ago and it said why arent the best of recently retired refs doing the VAR instead of the clowns we have now?

 

 

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14 hours ago, No2 said:

When I played football a penalty had to be a foul and also in the box, it wasn't one or the other. I wasn't aware the law had changed to one or the other.

It seems to me on the line call it was just a case of have a guess and clear and obvious is thrown out of the window. 

 

As for the foul itself, I'm trying to understand what the foul was given for. For me there's 2 potential actions, the 1st is his foot in where he wins the ball, the 2nd is fractionally after that where ones the ball has gone he kind of follows through and brings him down. If it is the latter, it's miles outside the box, so we have to assume it's the initial tackle. He clearly wins the ball and perhaps then steps on the players foot. Now last season there were a few pens for stepping on players feet, but I genuinely thought that was one they got rid of. It's a contact game, yet when it suits them they want to be able to call any piece of contact is a foul and it's just not. 

13 hours ago, Jennings said:

See the McGuire foul that VAR missed today, Crazy. He actually had the Chelsea lad in a flying headlock.

 

Something gotta be wrong in the game if a Liverpool fan is complaining that Chelsea didn't get a penalty.

And here is the other side of this coin of shit. So the slightest contact when the ball is won 1st in a debatable location is not just supported by VAR they double down on it by upgrading it to a penalty on nothing more than a hunch. Yet here we have the simplest of decisions to make with the Maguire foul, the ref makes a bad call on it and they double down on this through their "clear and obvious" get out of jail catch all if you don't want to give a pen. 

 

VAR has solved absolutely nothing in terms of making people feel they get the big decisions right. All it has managed to do is make calls on microscopic issues absolutely nobody gave a shit about anyway and absolutely suck the joy out of every single goal. 

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53 minutes ago, DaveT said:

I still believe in VAR. 

You & everyone else who feels the same should start your own breakaway sport where everything has to be fucking perfect & leave Football to the rest of us.

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It would be better if the VAR refs stuck to VAR and vice versa.  Maybe the VAR refs would then take more pride in getting VAR to work properly rather than backing up the match ref being their main priority. 

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The latest explanation is that 60fps is insufficient to catch the ACTUAL frame that shows the attacker to be offside. So they use the nearest one. But don't worry its all done by computer extrapolation so it can't be wrong...

 

...which begs the questions why have a chimp draw lines all over it and why take 3 minutes to make a decision.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, aws said:

The question of offside should be a technical question like whether the whole of the ball has gone over the goal line or not. You don't need to be a referee to draw straight lines on a computer image and as it looks like they can't do it competently maybe somebody with the right skills should be doing it. 

Apparently they don't draw the line. They choose the point on the defender and attacker. So if we look at this mane one, they apparently chose the outer edge of Mane's shirt sleeve and the boot of Mina and then the computer does it from there. The ref also does choose the frame which is selected, the apparently choose the 1st one when it is clear the ball has left the attackers boots. But obviously the frame rate is not good enough to catch that exact moment. 

Screenshot_20201017-143848.jpg

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1 minute ago, Jennings said:

The latest explanation is that 60fps is insufficient to catch the ACTUAL frame that shows the attacker to be offside. So they use the nearest one. But don't worry its all done by computer extrapolation so it can't be wrong...

 

...which begs the questions why have a chimp draw lines all over it and why take 3 minutes to make a decision.

 

 

Chimp is right, There's daylight between Mane's sleeve and the yellow line but somehow the dotted line joins his sleeve to the far line.  May as well draw a dotted line to show Hendo is offside as well. 

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3 hours ago, chrisbonnie said:

It won't go, but it should. 

 

Funny, we all wanted this shite when it was just left up to the linos a few years ago. 

 

Safe to say, "be careful what you wish for" 

 

We scored 3 goals yesterday, obviously one was chalked off and rightly so, but I didn't celebrate one of them. If you can't celebrate a goal, then what's the fucking point of the game?? 

Not all of us!

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1 hour ago, aws said:

Chimp is right, There's daylight between Mane's sleeve and the yellow line but somehow the dotted line joins his sleeve to the far line.  May as well draw a dotted line to show Hendo is offside as well. 

Apparently that can be explained by the fact that the top of the arm is no longer handball. So you could theoretically score with that part of the arm. I say theoretically because I can guarantee the at some point in the season a goal will be allowed by VAR for this use of the arm. Whilst on another occasion a goal will be disallowed by VAR for this use of the arm. My guess is that it will depend on which way they want to use VAR to defend the decision of the on-field chimp.

image.png

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12 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

Apparently they don't draw the line. They choose the point on the defender and attacker. So if we look at this mane one, they apparently chose the outer edge of Mane's shirt sleeve and the boot of Mina and then the computer does it from there. The ref also does choose the frame which is selected, the apparently choose the 1st one when it is clear the ball has left the attackers boots. But obviously the frame rate is not good enough to catch that exact moment. 

Screenshot_20201017-143848.jpg

Didn't realise that. I wonder how they get the computer to draw bendy lines.

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It's still all bollocks though because despite the computer being capable of performing two billion computations per second, the chimp drawing the lines can only operate at one calculation per calendar month.

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If you need to look at the still for more than a second to decide it is offside...then it is onside. Now get on with the game.

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I thought they had admitted the VAR ref forgot the rules during that game. I mean, how do you argue with that?

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11 minutes ago, Jennings said:

If you need to look at the still for more than a second to decide it is offside...then it is onside. Now get on with the game.

Exactly. If it's not clear and obvious at first sight then advantage the attacker as I thought it was supposed to be. Or maybe they dropped that rule too? They can cover their backs by not releasing the computer image if they want to. 

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20 minutes ago, aws said:

Didn't realise that. I wonder how they get the computer to draw bendy lines.

It's software done by the same fellas who do the goal line technology and the Hawkeye in cricket. Apparently that's not foolproof either as the camera angle makes the software unreliable too and increases the margin of error. And this is the nonsense with it all, the markers are subjective, the frame rate can't call the right moment and finally there's a margin of error in the software depending on the camera angles. Yet we give offside on distances less than the margin of error and coupled with the fact the marking of the players is in itself subjective and open to human error. It's fucking nonsense and actually undermines VAR even more if that's possible. 

 

I genuinely don't get the point of what they're trying to achieve with VAR.

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43 minutes ago, aws said:

Chimp is right, There's daylight between Mane's sleeve and the yellow line but somehow the dotted line joins his sleeve to the far line.  May as well draw a dotted line to show Hendo is offside as well. 

Wasnt it Chris Kamara who showed the lines were 'bent' when that goal of Bobby's was ruled out at Villa last season?

 

I know lots of people say you cannot celebrate goals now but Im like the players, celebrate it then wait to see if the VAR allows it. As soon as there was a delay with Hendo's goal last week I knew we were in trouble. In all honesty, I was surprised they didnt find an offside in the build up to Jota's goal last night even though there's this first, second and third phase bollocks.

 

Looking at the pictures of the McBirnie incident, neither the player nor ball looks on the line to me. But our old mate Marriner was VARing so that explains it. It's fucking amazing that last night, that's judged a pen yet last season, Naby's hacked down in the box against Leicester and it's play on, no foul.

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I still don't think the technology is the problem. The problem lies with the way it's being used, and especially the numpties in charge of implimenting it. There are tweaks that can be made.

 

I've said it before, but the 'clear and obvious' aspect of refereeing errors must be ditched. If an error, obvious or not, had a material effect on the game (a goal, a foul, an injury, cheating...), it must be looked at and corrected. The material effect should be the important thing.

 

Simplify the offside line by basing it on the feet of the players. Who cares if other parts of the body can be used to score a goal. The position of a player's feet should be the deciding factor on close calls. If it needs infinitesimal analysis, then the benefit should go to the attacking player rather than looking for millimetres.

 

The referee MUST go over to the VAR screen to review an incident. He can still confer with the other officials while doing so, and it gives the referee a chance to see something they might have missed or originally viewed differently. They should know by now that there's often a significant difference between what the VAR official is saying over the mic, and what the screen shows. The equipment is there pitchside. USE IT!

 

Lots of people are saying to jib off VAR. I'm starting to come around to the idea that Riley and his cronies are deliberately making a messing of things so this ends up happening. Then they can go back to their old set-up of making things up as they go along without the added layer of 'explanation' and the rigmarole of using technology. Returning to the old way would see even more 'Riley and Webb at Old Trafford' refereeing. Be careful what you wish for.

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41 minutes ago, Barrington Womble said:

It's software done by the same fellas who do the goal line technology and the Hawkeye in cricket. Apparently that's not foolproof either as the camera angle makes the software unreliable too and increases the margin of error. And this is the nonsense with it all, the markers are subjective, the frame rate can't call the right moment and finally there's a margin of error in the software depending on the camera angles. Yet we give offside on distances less than the margin of error and coupled with the fact the marking of the players is in itself subjective and open to human error. It's fucking nonsense and actually undermines VAR even more if that's possible. 

 

I genuinely don't get the point of what they're trying to achieve with VAR.

They’re trying to achieve the utopia of 100% of goals scored coming from retaken penalties. What a time to be alive.

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