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Lee909

VAR Thoughts?

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I'm happy with VAR for offside as the decision ought to be clear-cut and VAR mistakes should be rare so on balance we'll see far less game changing errors by the officials.  

 

Other decisions are judgement calls and VAR mistakes will be commonplace and just lead to more controversy particularly when tackles, handballs etc are viewed in slow-motion and the actions of the defender look far more premeditated than when viewed at normal speed.  

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I don’t see how it’s shit if it helps us arrive at the correct outcome in the vast majority of cases. One of the arguments I’ve repeatedly seen that carries the most weight is that it’ll take the drama out of football. Well, last night handily debunks that theory.

 

It’s not only good, but necessary 

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The simple fact of the matter is that with VAR, we would be 1 point away from engraving our name on the Premier League trophy.

 

VAR awards Mane's goal that was incorrectly ruled out for offside at Arsenal. +2 points

VAR sends Kompany off at the Etihad with the scores at 0-0. We get a draw. +1 point for us, -2 for City

VAR gives us a penalty when Keita is scythed down against Leicester at Anfield. +2 points

VAR takes away a goal at West Ham when Milner was offside. We lose instead of drawing. -1 point

 

All of the above would put us on 95 points and City on 89.

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2 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

The simple fact of the matter is that with VAR, we would be 1 point away from engraving our name on the Premier League trophy.

 

VAR awards Mane's goal that was incorrectly ruled out for offside at Arsenal. +2 points

VAR sends Kompany off at the Etihad with the scores at 0-0. We get a draw. +1 point for us, -2 for City

VAR gives us a penalty when Keita is scythed down against Leicester at Anfield. +2 points

VAR takes away a goal at West Ham when Milner was offside. We lose instead of drawing. -1 point

 

All of the above would put us on 95 points and City on 89.

 All very good. But how about the times when we’ve had the benefit of bad calls?

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12 minutes ago, liverpoolsno9 said:

 All very good. But how about the times when we’ve had the benefit of bad calls?

 

Fuck using VAR for those games.

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Just now, Strontium Dog said:

 

I included the single occasion when a bad call benefited us.

 Boly for Wolves handball goal in a draw v City earlier in season? Son should have had a pen in the dying seconds v us when it was 2-1 and we’d bossed the game? City should have had another pen v us when Lovren brought Aguero down in the 1st few minutes at Anfield?  That’s just off the top of my head, no doubt there’s more. 

Its not good to magnify decisions when the Title is so tight, but if you’re gonna magnify decisions, it works both ways. 

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11 minutes ago, liverpoolsno9 said:

 Boly for Wolves handball goal in a draw v City earlier in season? Son should have had a pen in the dying seconds v us when it was 2-1 and we’d bossed the game? City should have had another pen v us when Lovren brought Aguero down in the 1st few minutes at Anfield?  That’s just off the top of my head, no doubt there’s more. 

Its not good to magnify decisions when the Title is so tight, but if you’re gonna magnify decisions, it works both ways. 

 

I forgot the Son one. I didn't include marginal decisions. VAR only overturns decisions when it's a clear and obvious error. For instance, I didn't include City's handball against Spurs the other week either.

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3 hours ago, Strontium Dog said:

The simple fact of the matter is that with VAR, we would be 1 point away from engraving our name on the Premier League trophy.

 

VAR awards Mane's goal that was incorrectly ruled out for offside at Arsenal. +2 points

VAR sends Kompany off at the Etihad with the scores at 0-0. We get a draw. +1 point for us, -2 for City

VAR gives us a penalty when Keita is scythed down against Leicester at Anfield. +2 points

VAR takes away a goal at West Ham when Milner was offside. We lose instead of drawing. -1 point

 

All of the above would put us on 95 points and City on 89.

From that list above Keita is getting a late penalty, 2 extra points. Son is also getting one at Wembley, as the saying goes they even themselves out.

 

The rest are subjective either in outcome or overall result, I don't think Anthony Taylor's mate in the VAR room is going against him on the Kompany one even though he should, Maguire at Anfield probably doesn't change either. Mane's at Arsenal made it 1 nil, we went 1 nil up anyway and didn't win so we can't automatically claim 3 points. Same at West Ham, we may well have scored at a different point in the game had we needed to.

 

So over 36 games it's changed nothing and stopped play 100 times.  For every Man City Spurs finish we will have 5000 irrelevant offside checks when we're 3 up at home to Huddersfield. 

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Giving keepers a hurry up when taking goal/free kicks would instantly save enough time for 2-3 VAR checks without breaking sweat.

 

Why refs only wait until 80+ minutes to start giving warnings, when it's obviously been happening since the 1st minute, I'll never know. 

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9 hours ago, A_S said:

Giving keepers a hurry up when taking goal/free kicks would instantly save enough time for 2-3 VAR checks without breaking sweat.

 

Why refs only wait until 80+ minutes to start giving warnings, when it's obviously been happening since the 1st minute, I'll never know. 

Accoring to the rules if a keeper holds on to the ball for more than 6 seconds before releasing it, the other team gets an indirect free kick. It never happens though!

 

It surprises me the crowd never seem to help the ref with the seconds count shouting "one - two - three" etc When the count goes up to eight we'd either get a free kick or the keeper would at least be stressed.

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15 minutes ago, JustTosh said:

Accoring to the rules if a keeper holds on to the ball for more than 6 seconds before releasing it, the other team gets an indirect free kick. It never happens though!

 

It surprises me the crowd never seem to help the ref with the seconds count shouting "one - two - three" etc When the count goes up to eight we'd either get a free kick or the keeper would at least be stressed.

It was another of FIFA's pre season projects that die out very quickly. Remember the 'grappling in the penalty area' directive? That was another that bit the dust after a referee correctly gave two or three penalties in an early season game.

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I have one question, why for goal line technology do we actually only get a mocked up image and not the real picture?

 

I say this as I'm aware some Liverpool fans that thought the Liverpool City goal at Eithad should have stood, but also the goal at weekend for City, some actual non Liverpool mates mentioned that what they weren't convinced Burnley scored! All a bit weird, beep in pocket, image pops up and all moves on!

 

 

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37 minutes ago, VladimirIlyich said:

It was another of FIFA's pre season projects that die out very quickly. Remember the 'grappling in the penalty area' directive? That was another that bit the dust after a referee correctly gave two or three penalties in an early season game.

Yes, remember that. Still the 6 sec rule applies. No reason not to help the ref with the seconds count is it? When the crowd goes "seven!" ref does nothing ... crowd goes "eight!" ref does nothing? Both ref and the keeper must feel the pressure. Would he have balls enough to hear "nine!" and still do nothing? I feel pretty sure it would help, either we get the free kick we're supposed to have or the keeper releases the ball before he wants to.

 

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10 hours ago, A_S said:

Why refs only wait until 80+ minutes to start giving warnings, when it's obviously been happening since the 1st minute, I'll never know. 

The reason they let it go is refs are happy to have a breather or allow the game cool down. Inside their muttering take your time son.

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32 minutes ago, Nolongerathletic said:

I have one question, why for goal line technology do we actually only get a mocked up image and not the real picture?

 

I say this as I'm aware some Liverpool fans that thought the Liverpool City goal at Eithad should have stood, but also the goal at weekend for City, some actual non Liverpool mates mentioned that what they weren't convinced Burnley scored! All a bit weird, beep in pocket, image pops up and all moves on!

 

 

 Let it go mate, one was a goal, one wasn't. There's nothing weird about it. It's the way it is. 

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3 hours ago, JustTosh said:

Accoring to the rules if a keeper holds on to the ball for more than 6 seconds before releasing it, the other team gets an indirect free kick. It never happens though!

 

It surprises me the crowd never seem to help the ref with the seconds count shouting "one - two - three" etc When the count goes up to eight we'd either get a free kick or the keeper would at least be stressed.

I remember Suarez used to count to the ref when the keeper was holding the ball.

Never got a free kick mind

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A pound to a pinch of shit says there will be a VAR call in our game against Norwich.  Every last ref in the country will be wanking himself to sleep every night over the thought of getting the Golden Ticket of the first game of the season and the chance of what passes as glory in the PGMOL, by being the first to use VAR in the Premier League. 

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Article from a guy called Jordan Campbell on the Athletic

 

Also mentions in the comments that us & Old Trafford are the only two grounds without the scoreboard technology to show replays , so we will get talked through it by Uncle George

 

It could be a Richarlison offside, a Lewis Dunk foul in the box or a Ben Mee handball on the line. It’s unlikely any of these three hypothetical incidents will occur on Saturday but, if they do, there is a new dimension to factor into Premier League officiating. It’s called VAR (the video assistant referee). Heard of it?

 

Welcome to Stockley Park, London, home to IMG’s swanky studios, and the building where the Premier League’s VAR hub is entombed. Inside there are monitors galore, with seven VAR stations positioned in a circle. They could all be in operation at the same time on a Saturday afternoon.

 

Much of the focus has been on the referees — how they will deal with the emotional stress of having their decision overturned and whether their authority will be undermined — but take a seat in one of the VAR chairs and it’s difficult not to empathise with the pressure the officials will be under from tens of thousands of fans and millions at home awaiting their judgement.

 

There will be two officials at each station, and one extra if there are more than 12 camera angles in use, under IFAB laws. Three “hub commanders” — including former Premier League referees Neil Swarbrick and Mike Malarkey — will patrol the centre of the room in case they need to be consulted. However, their interest will already have been piqued as the monitor will light up red to denote that the officials in a certain match are watching footage on delay.

They have been training for two and a half years ahead of this weekend’s launch. It has included 69 Carabao and FA Cup games, nine England academy events at St George’s Park and 15 simulated Premier League games. They know the parameters and protocols inside out — some have even officiated in the Champions League — but there are a whole load of stages to go through before the words “check complete” are uttered.

 

It takes an hour to calibrate the cameras before kick-off. Camera operators are dispatched to every stadium to ‘map’ the dimensions of the pitch from a multitude of angles, thus generating a model for each pitch, which is then loaded into the VAR monitor on matchday.

 

The Premier League has decided that all broadcast cameras in the stadium will be available to VAR officials, but the biggest development is that “crosshair” technology will ensure offside decisions are indisputable, even if there is no perfect angle.

Cast your mind back to the first leg of Tottenham’s Carabao Cup semi-final against Chelsea. Harry Kane scored a penalty after he was deemed marginally onside in the build-up, but there was no definitive camera angle. If a player is leaning, like Kane was in January, a 3D line will be drawn down from the most advanced part of the body to judge their precise location. No need for a camera running parallel to play.

 

It is an intricate job, especially when fans cannot see what is being assessed, but there have been no targets set for the time a decision should take. The priority is getting the call right, says Swarbrick, the head of VAR implementation.

 

“The more experience our match officials get, the quicker they will be in operating the technology,” Swarbrick says. “It can look quite intricate, but it’s important to get it right. The experience of using the crosshairs in the Champions League knockout match suggests that it can add about 10 seconds to the process. Obviously, if there are a series of offsides in one incident it may take slightly longer.”

 

The Referee Review Area (RRA) — also known as the box next to pitch — will be used sparingly, as it was established that the time taken to visit the sideline booth and return to play averaged 90 seconds. A player will be booked if they enter the zone, but there has even been a case in Europe where a player has stolen the referee’s earpiece to deny him the chance to consult the video officials.

 

After analysing how VAR has been implemented in competitions such as the Champions League, Copa America and the Women’s World Cup, the Premier League’s “minimum interference” guidelines mean officials will only watch an incident back three times at full speed. That will be used to establish intensity before close-ups are used to gauge intent, with the aim to avoid challenges being made to look worse than they are.

 

The in-stadium screens will display a graphic informing the fans what decision is under review. If a decision has been overturned the definitive replay will be shown to fans. Moving to a system where fans can watch and listen to what VAR officials are doing — like in cricket and rugby — is something that could happen down the line. At the moment, commentators will only be able to quote what the officials have said.

 

Referees have been instructed to officiate without any hesitancy, even though there is the question of whether having a decision overruled will affect their performance throughout the remainder of the game. However, they acknowledge that subjectivity will remain and that it is about “marrying up” the referee’s interpretation of events with what is seen in the VAR suite.

 

That means there could be two identical fouls which end up with different outcomes, as they are setting a “high” threshold when it comes to overturning decisions that remain subjective. The balance will always be skewed in favour of sticking with the reasoning given by the on-field official.

 

Arguably the most subjective area of all, and the one likely to cause the most debate this season, is around when an incorrect decision is deemed inconsequential. After consulting every Premier League club, VAR officials decided that only decisions in the immediate phase of play would be reviewed.

 

Officials reset the attacking phase by pressing the green button on their desk — the red is used to communicate to the referee in what is a one-way channel until that point. That means only incidents occurring after the latest bookmark can be deemed part of the goal.

 

Naby Keita’s goal against Southampton, when Mohamed Salah was offside in the build-up, would have stood under VAR rules. It was deemed that as Southampton had defended two crosses following the offside, the goal was no longer the same phase of play. Only one Premier League club disagreed with that ruling.

 

The Premier League will have posters at grounds and will publish VAR explainer videos, but what some fans don’t realise is that every goal is automatically checked. Only if there is a reason to overturn the on-pitch decision will its use be highlighted.

 

The men’s 2018 World Cup saw a VAR review lead to the referee’s original decision being overturned once every 3.2 games, while the women’s World Cup saw a decision overturned once every 1.9 games.  Yet the Premier League want to avoid delaying the games continuously, according to Swarbrick.

 

“From our testing, we have seen an overturned decision once every five matches,” he explains. “We’re setting a high threshold for VAR intervention, but you can never predict what will happen in a game of football. You could get three or four overturned decisions in a game, or you could get none. We will of course assess our progress through the season, this is an ever-evolving process.”

 

VAR’s worth is being made clear in cold, hard numbers. Despite an 82% matchday accuracy last season when it came to “big calls” in the Premier League, it was found that if VAR had been in action there would have been 41 offside cases overturned — 31 of which happened when the scores were level or there was a one-goal difference.

Testing has found that the accuracy of referees improves from 84% to 87%, while assistant referee’s accuracy moves from 79% to 95%, with an average check time of 84 seconds.

 

Evidently, in less than 90 seconds there are a lot of decisions to be made before a conclusion can be reached. Premier League fans will have 380 90-minute games to decide whether this version of VAR, adapted to the pace of English football, is the antidote to human error they’ve been searching for.

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I've no problem with VAR being used for off-sides. My worry has always been countless slow-motion replays being used to overrule a common-sense, immediate decision by the ref so I'm glad to see that they'll be looking at real-time replays. 

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The main change I was hoping for is to do away with the pitchside ref monitor thing completely , get the Techies to make all decisions.

 

Seems to be worrying more about upsetting the ref than making sure correct decisions are being taken.

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